Fishing Rod Issues

[lakerfuffle]

Well the general consensus here is that people desperately want the fishing rod to stay; the poll results indicate that. Conclusion: fishing rod is staying how it is.

 

[G33ke]

I don't want to learn how to use the fishing rod.

I hate saying this...but that's your problem.

In vanilla Minecraft, I could argue about tons of things I don't want to learn to use, but if I don't, I'm not doing something the best I possibly can.
To be fair, on vanilla Minecraft, I can avoid using something and forget about it, but in MCSG, somebody using the fishing rod would directly effect my game, and I cannot be free of it...
...but honestly? I've never, ever seen another server other than places filled with MCSG players that have this particular problem. You could go on the numerous other fantastic Survival Games servers if you don't want to see it.

If you don't want to do that (because you don't enjoy them as much for gameplay or whatever the reason may be.) then I'm sorry to say that your argument isn't going to change much on it's own. I say that not just because I disagree with it, but because I know this community well enough. This community isn't going to let you change one of it's key features. The fishing rod "stun" is one of the major things that sets MCSG apart from other servers, and it seems silly to abandon it. If you don't like it, you're in the wrong place...and practically, it would be a really, really stupid idea for the staff to change it.

It's like the old controversy about Breeze Island. Though a very large portion of the forum community wanted it gone really badly, it wasn't ever going to be removed. It couldn't be. It wasn't an option. Removing Breeze Island would take a huge hit on the playerbase, especially considering how at the time the map was played more than any other map. The fishing rod is no different. At this point, it's not about how "fair" it is, but it's about how it will effect the servers positively or negatively. And honestly? Most people are in one of two groups: People who use the fishing rod actively for PvP, and people who honestly think it's "just a food source". Just look at your own poll statistics: About a tenth of the people who have seen this thread share your opinion, and this is just the forum community. Considering the high amount of new player traffic each day in-game and not on the forums, I'm being led to believe that the amount of people who share your opinion in the in-game community is very miniscule.

If you're unwilling to learn how to use it and use it effectively, then you have to understand that you're putting yourself at a disadvantage, it's not the servers that are putting you at a disadvantage. The same can be said about so many other, non-minecraft games. Just look at TF2 (Team Fortress 2) as just one example: If you refuse to learn how to rocket jump as a soldier, then you will be a more ineffective soldier...it's simple as that really. It's part of how the game is "meant to be played well" by the community's set standards, and if you don't play it the "best" way, you won't be the "best" you can be.

As much as I hate "majority wins" arguments for balance related things, sometimes there truly is a reason why it wins. The minority is simply too small for it to be considered, considering the sheer numbers of negatively effected people from the majority.

It's your problem, not everyone else's.

 

[lakerfuffle]

I hate saying this...but that's your problem.

In vanilla Minecraft, I could argue about tons of things I don't want to learn to use, but if I don't, I'm not doing something the best I possibly can.
To be fair, on vanilla Minecraft, I can avoid using something and forget about it, but in MCSG, somebody using the fishing rod would directly effect my game, and I cannot be free of it...
...but honestly? I've never, ever seen another server other than places filled with MCSG players that have this particular problem. You could go on the numerous other fantastic Survival Games servers if you don't want to see it.

If you don't want to do that (because you don't enjoy them as much for gameplay or whatever the reason may be.) then I'm sorry to say that your argument isn't going to change much on it's own. I say that not just because I disagree with it, but because I know this community well enough. This community isn't going to let you change one of it's key features. The fishing rod "stun" is one of the major things that sets MCSG apart from other servers, and it seems silly to abandon it. If you don't like it, you're in the wrong place...and practically, it would be a really, really stupid idea for the staff to change it.

It's like the old controversy about Breeze Island. Though a very large portion of the forum community wanted it gone really badly, it wasn't ever going to be removed. It couldn't be. It wasn't an option. Removing Breeze Island would take a huge hit on the playerbase, especially considering how at the time the map was played more than any other map. The fishing rod is no different. At this point, it's not about how "fair" it is, but it's about how it will effect the servers positively or negatively. And honestly? Most people are in one of two groups: People who use the fishing rod actively for PvP, and people who honestly think it's "just a food source". Just look at your own poll statistics: About a tenth of the people who have seen this thread share your opinion, and this is just the forum community. Considering the high amount of new player traffic each day in-game and not on the forums, I'm being led to believe that the amount of people who share your opinion in the in-game community is very miniscule.

If you're unwilling to learn how to use it and use it effectively, then you have to understand that you're putting yourself at a disadvantage, it's not the servers that are putting you at a disadvantage. The same can be said about so many other, non-minecraft games. Just look at TF2 (Team Fortress 2) as just one example: If you refuse to learn how to rocket jump as a soldier, then you will be a more ineffective soldier...it's simple as that really. It's part of how the game is "meant to be played well" by the community's set standards, and if you don't play it the "best" way, you won't be the "best" you can be.

As much as I hate "majority wins" arguments for balance related things, sometimes there truly is a reason why it wins. The minority is simply too small for it to be considered, considering the sheer numbers of negatively effected people from the majority.

It's your problem, not everyone else's.

Now imagine you said this May of 2012. Nobody would have a clue what you're talking about. Put it in perspective: the community came about and thrived without ever needing the help of some fishing rod. It's all relative.

 

[RC_4777]

Now imagine you said this May of 2012. Nobody would have a clue what you're talking about. Put it in perspective: the community came about and thrived without ever needing the help of some fishing rod. It's all relative.

We also started without MCSGv2; Remove it now, we instantly destroy MCSG. Now, the rod isn't quite as influential, but it is still now a major part.

 

[roguehh]

Moved to Feature Suggestions.

 

[G33ke]

Now imagine you said this May of 2012. Nobody would have a clue what you're talking about. Put it in perspective: the community came about and thrived without ever needing the help of some fishing rod. It's all relative.

As RC said: If we just went back to our V1 plugin now, it would have a huge impact on the community and I can't see MCSG quickly recovering from it. That's why, at this point, there is no way we could go back to V1 without taking a huge hit. Theoretically, MCSG could be quite big today without the new plugin, but everyone has grown so accustomed to it that it makes zero sense to go back, no matter how much people argue.


If you want to blame someone for the community picking up the fishing rod PvP stuff, blame me. Many say I popularized it. (and some say I invented it, but truthfully nobody knows for sure who was first to do it.)
It was never my intention to bring such a thing to the game, I hoped it would just be my thing and nobody would catch on. Little did I expect that the right people took notice that I existed and started trying it for themselves.

Trust me, I've wondered what it would be like if nobody had ever come up with it. Maybe things would be better? I don't know. Still, I cannot help but argue that, at this point, it should stay. To be perfectly honest, everything it does can be replicated with a bow and arrow anyway, it's just harder.

 

[lakerfuffle]

As RC said: If we just went back to our V1 plugin now, it would have a huge impact on the community and I can't see MCSG quickly recovering from it. That's why, at this point, there is no way we could go back to V1 without taking a huge hit. Theoretically, MCSG could be quite big today without the new plugin, but everyone has grown so accustomed to it that it makes zero sense to go back, no matter how much people argue.


If you want to blame someone for the community picking up the fishing rod PvP stuff, blame me. Many say I popularized it. (and some say I invented it, but truthfully nobody knows for sure who was first to do it.)
It was never my intention to bring such a thing to the game, I hoped it would just be my thing and nobody would catch on. Little did I expect that the right people took notice that I existed and started trying it for themselves.

Trust me, I've wondered what it would be like if nobody had ever come up with it. Maybe things would be better? I don't know. Still, I cannot help but argue that, at this point, it should stay. To be perfectly honest, everything it does can be replicated with a bow and arrow anyway, it's just harder.

Going from v2 to v1 is much, much different than removing an item.
That said, I don't blame you for anything. It's nobody's fault but mcsg's that the fishing rod is still a viable pvp tool, if you can call that a "fault." Which it's not. The fishing rod is just a glitch that should have been dealt with a very long time ago, before it became so utterly vital, it seems, to the community. I mean look at the numbers on this poll. It's kind of sad that people rely so absurdly much on one item, especially an item that isn't a sword or bow.

 

[RC_4777]

Going from v2 to v1 is much, much different than removing an item.
That said, I don't blame you for anything. It's nobody's fault but mcsg's that the fishing rod is still a viable pvp tool, if you can call that a "fault." Which it's not. The fishing rod is just a glitch that should have been dealt with a very long time ago, before it became so utterly vital, it seems, to the community. I mean look at the numbers on this poll. It's kind of sad that people rely so absurdly much on one item, especially an item that isn't a sword or bow.

Why does it matter if the fishing rod is the item relied upon heavily? Flint and Steel is relied heavily upon, golden apples are relied upon, swords are relied upon, bows are relied upon, food is relied upon, routes are relied upon, etc. Taking away any of those things would completely screw with how we play? Honestly, being adept in the rod as well as sword, bow, and flint and steel gives you more options when you are out of something. In fact, it could be argued that not using and keeping a fishing rod around could be making you more absurdly dependent on other things because there are less strategies overall you can depend on. That would mean by using the fishing rod, people can in fact be making themselves less dependent on any one strategy element.

 

[smashmaster]

I liked it back when pvp wasnt with the rod but it is a part of the game now

 

[G33ke]

Going from v2 to v1 is much, much different than removing an item.
That said, I don't blame you for anything. It's nobody's fault but mcsg's that the fishing rod is still a viable pvp tool, if you can call that a "fault." Which it's not. The fishing rod is just a glitch that should have been dealt with a very long time ago, before it became so utterly vital, it seems, to the community. I mean look at the numbers on this poll. It's kind of sad that people rely so absurdly much on one item, especially an item that isn't a sword or bow.

Just the thought of seriously attacking somebody in real life by casting a rod at them over pure sword combat is kind of absurd. xD (Though, to be fair, tons of games have absurd things. ...Rocket Jumping, I will again mention as but one of many examples.)

In all seriousness, though: People have always relied on glitches in games to be the "best" at them. From beating the first generation pokemon games in a minute with warp glitches, to, well...most of Minecraft. A long while back, Notch himself said that a ton of "features" in the game were a result of bugs. This is quite apparent with even the smallest things like carpets letting light through or signs stopping the flowing of water. Who said glitches had to be a bad thing all the time? People rely on glitches in games all the time, and unless it effects the balance of the game in a negative way, is game breaking, or otherwise unwanted...why change it? Heck, unless I'm mistaken, Mario from the Mario series of games had a mustache in the first game for the simple fact that hardware limitations stopped them from giving him a mouth instead. (Citation needed, but it's primarily used as an example.) It's not uncommon for accidental glitches to inevitably be accepted by even game developers. The glitches are simply slightly modified and worked around a bit to make sense and you practically have a feature. Nothing is unfair or bad just because it wasn't the intentional effect.

The thing that causes fishing rods to be able to hit players is the way CraftBukkit/Spigot handle players. I do not know precisely what they do, but essentially the server converts them to something easier for it to handle, which, in this case, allows them to be hit by fishing rods like mobs, unlike in purely vanilla play. The thing is, not only is it near impossible to remove this feature without completely changing the way Bukkit/Spigot handles players, but honestly...? Is it necessary? Though theoretically a bug, it's present on next to every server and makes sense considering the fact that all mobs could be hit by them anyway, why limit it? As far as the majority of Minecraft players are aware, it's an intentional feature.
The act of using the rod on a player for PvP purposes like this though? Technically a bug, though for entirely unrelated, and, sadly, not easily fixable reasons. Fixing fishing rods knocking players back is bad enough, but the reason it gives "extra reach" in PvP is a big mess that heavily has to do with latency and NCP, latency being truly impossible to fix in this day and age. Honestly, without risking a serious breach in security for hackers to get through, fixing fishing rods is near impossible. MCSG could remove them, but that's the best that could be hoped for if it wanted to stop this act.

In my personal opinion, the fishing rod adds an interesting twist to the game that I thoroughly enjoy. It, combined with the flint and steel usage being so small, the lack of randomness given by enchants on other servers, and the NCP making your reach slightly smaller, makes for a very unique PvP experience I've not seen anywhere else. The fishing rod, though a glitch, is something the community has taken the time and effort to attempt to master, and they should be rewarded for it. It what sets the "pros" apart from everyone else. Anyone who can shoot a bow can do it, it just takes practice and knowledge, which can help in so many other categories like flint and steel and chest routes that I honestly don't know why fishing rods of all things would be the one and only "overpowered" one. In my honest opinion, it's the most overrated. (Not that it's not a powerful skill to master or anything, but still.)

 

[Manos]

Damn guys calm down. This was never meant to be a place for insults.

And actually, just no. To this entire statement. I've been here since April 2012, and I am a very experienced player with a lot of wins. I'm not saying I'm insane or anything, but I know what I'm doing. Mastering one little aspect does not make you "good" at all. I flat out refuse to use the fishing rod because I disagree with its effect on the gameplay. Take your uneducated statements elsewhere, please.

When exactly did you join the forums. just curious

 

[lakerfuffle]

When exactly did you join the forums. just curious

my first account was made way back in 2012. this one is newer.
http://www.minecraftsurvivalgames.com/members/chocolatenannerz.22310/