Petition - Change the deleting evidence rule. [200+ Signatures!]

[MiCr2]

Well not all petitions, I'm saying the reasons that we tend to get angry at petitions is because a lot of them used to be angry and/or even abusive.

I also said that this one wasn't like the others, it's reasonable and was presented in a professional matter. Like I said, they were not ignored. Just because they didn't get many staff responses does not mean they were ignored.

Here's the thing. I don't want to start an argument with you, or anyone else. There just needs to be a realization that the staff is not out to get anybody. Everybody makes mistakes, were human. Let's not let our big mistake be all a misunderstanding

From now on this thread will stay free of any comments saying that the staff sucks, that we don't do our job, that were corrupt, and that we don't know what were doing and were ignoring the community because we aren't c:

On a side note, related to other comments: I'm sick of people in general saying that the staff is butthurt and bad, because all were trying to do is not create an uprising on a misunderstanding. When people get angry over things and say stuff like "wow the staff sucks, they're dumb" do you really expect that to not be deleted? And then when something like that is, were called for being immature and butthurt? It just doesn't make sense, so why don't we make efforts to all get along and accomplish things as a united community instead of trying to do it from two different sides in an argument. ^.^

"A house divided against itself cannot stand" -Abraham Lincoln.

I'll tell you why. Whenever a person suggests an idea or goes against the staff, they are shot down into the dark pit never to be seen or heard again.
"We don't ignore you" is somewhat true. You hear us and then delete us. You have to both listen, reason and respond in a more civilized way, instead of just saying: "This will never happen. Reason reason reason, bla bla bla. Thread locked." We then try to reason back, but instead, it gets deleted.

Staff used to be civilized and reason with critisim. Instead, they take the short cut and lock the thread in fear of creating an uprising.
Its ok to have critisim. Its ok to have an uprising. Its not nice to have, but at least you get to see what the community would like to have and acctually have a discussion with them.

Stop shooting us down and listen for once.

We have given many reasonable solutions, but instead we get the reply: "Give it up, we will never change!"

And to the moderator who said that you would need a database to store stuff which would cost money, etc etc.
All that could be done, is that YOU make a backup of the evidence. Here's another idea: Create a script that goes through the ban reports, opens link, save picture or video on a server and replaces the evidence link, with a link from the server directly. That way you don't have to deal with any buggy youtube or risk of having evidence deleted. (This would be done on the webserver)

So many ideas, but no. We shall return to the dark pit where we can't be heard.


Doesn't matter if its a thread or an email. We will still get shot down.

 

[Unknown // Rainbow Derp]

I'll tell you why. Whenever a person suggests an idea or goes against the staff, they are shot down into the dark pit never to be seen or heard again.
"We don't ignore you" is somewhat true. You hear us and then delete us. You have to both listen, reason and respond in a more civilized way, instead of just saying: "This will never happen. Reason reason reason, bla bla bla. Thread locked." We then try to reason back, but instead, it gets deleted.

Staff used to be civilized and reason with critisim. Instead, they take the short cut and lock the thread in fear of creating an uprising.
Its ok to have critisim. Its ok to have an uprising. Its not nice to have, but at least you get to see what the community would like to have and acctually have a discussion with them.

Stop shooting us down and listen for once.

We have given many reasonable solutions, but instead we get the reply: "Give it up, we will never change!"

And to the moderator who said that you would need a database to store stuff which would cost money, etc etc.
All that could be done, is that YOU make a backup of the evidence. Here's another idea: Create a script that goes through the ban reports, opens link, save picture or video on a server and replaces the evidence link, with a link from the server directly. That way you don't have to deal with any buggy youtube or risk of having evidence deleted. (This would be done on the webserver)

So many ideas, but no. We shall return to the dark pit where we can't be heard.


Doesn't matter if its a thread or an email. We will still get shot down.

Bit dark but true, also copy this just to make sure that they don't delete it.

 

[MiCr2]

Bit dark but true, also copy this just to make sure that they don't delete it.

Made a screenshot of it.

 

[Unknown // Rainbow Derp]

Made a screenshot of it.

Good We can never be sure nowadays.... -.-

 

[cscoop]

FRIENDLY REMINDER TO ANYONE READING: This is not under any circumstances a revolution or uprising. It is peaceful discussion. Continue bringing up amazing points ily all <3

 

[CAmadeusA]

Alright, so I'm just going to address this here and now. The rule that is currently being discussed, is one that is a necessity to be in place. Were proud to say that 99.9% of our bans have a solid evidence behind them. Every moderator is *required* to have a solid evidence behind their ban, and if they don't, repercussions are had. Furthermore, we require players whom submit evidence to keep their evidence around in order to not only keep up this standard, but to protect our players of any future damages, loss or hate. If we ever allowed removing of evidence, we would be wronging everyone who's been banned off our network, and we would only be more biased with the situations. Should we come across bans without evidence attached to it, should it be a moderators ban, they get in serious trouble. To the extent of being fired and possibly banned themselves. Upon seeing those bans, we do un-ban the person, which only lets another hacker or rule breaker onto our system, due to the fact that someone didn't have evidence to begin with or removed it. Without evidence, we cannot guarantee that whomever this person is, is truly breaking our rules or even deserving of the punishment given.
Now, lets get into the real meat and cheese of this thread eh? Removing people who remove evidence from our network. This rule has been in place for a very substantial amount of time, (I think coming up on a year to a year and a half), and it was put in place for the reasoning in the first paragraph. Its always been standard, and made known both on the rules page itself, in the template for the report abuse section, in some moderators replies to report abuses (This is now becoming more standard), and so on and so on. As harsh as people view this rule, its as necessary as it is harsh. If we allowed people to delete evidence, the quality of this community would drop exponentially. There is no right balance of removing evidence and letting people off free. We are working on a much better system for evidence in general, that will alleviate all of these concerns, but until that time comes around, this is the system that will be in place. If you have a better idea of a system to run for the removing evidences, that is possible, contact a member of the sr staff. No matter how many signatures this petition gets, it won't get any of its idealisms put into place until a reasonable one is brought up, and while remaining in the realm of possibility and fees-ability. To address some of these ideas, no we can't just "store them all in our database", as there has been too much to ever be amassed. So say the average video size is between 1 and 200 gigabytes, depending on the video compression, put the average at around 50 gigabytes for standard math purposes. We average 2000+ bans a day (if half of those are hacker videos, which more than half are), for the last 720 days of MCG's being at this average. That comes out to somewhere near 36,000,000 gigabytes of hacker videos alone. Im not even accounting for all the screenshots on a daily basis. Thats 36,000 terabytes, or 36 petabytes. For more information on a single petabyte, see http://www.computerweekly.com/feature/What-does-a-petabyte-look-like . This is unrealistically impossible because we (nor google, nor the government), have enough money to buy, and maintain that much data. We are working on a similar solution however too this that won't be anywhere near as extensive.
Another large suggestion is that we either let those who delete evidence off free, I'm sure anyone who's read this far in this post understands why we simply can't do that. Some suggest we do lower the ban times, or try harder to get in contact with people. We keep the permanent ban time because thats how on scale of an offense it is. We get nearly 150 ban disputes a day, and if more of those lack evidence, the amount of rule breakers on the servers will go up. This rule is as necessary as it is harsh in order to provide the best playing experience for the 90k people who play our system per day.
Now, its been made public for a while now, but I guess never necessarily went "viral", is the procedure if you want to remove videos either from your channel, for any generalized reason, etc. Should you for some reason want to "clean up" your channel, your plenty fine to go to a moderator and ask them to re-upload your videos (if you have a LOT of videos, you may require multiple staff members). From there, the moderator will go to a sr member of staff in order to add the new evidence link to the current ban tab so that all records are kept. For "accidents" if you (or someone else) re-upload the video and contact a member of staff, you will be unbanned, simple as that.

 

[ItsMustachio_]

I Mustachio would like to sign the petition

 

[billyguy1]

I sign

 

[Devblock]

CAmadeusA
1) Please, use paragraphs. That wall of text was difficult to read.

I am definitely in agreeance that this rule is completely necessary, and I can't disagree with WHY the rule is in place. What I CAN disagree with, however, is the ban length of this particular offense.

For one reason, nobody means any harm. They delete their evidence because the evidence takes up too much space (which I believe you might have briefed on.) It really should not be a player responsibility to host evidence for the staff to do with it. As a player, if we choose to adopt the responsibility of reporting hackers, we do NOT adopt the ability to store evidence for them. As far as I am made aware, we did not agree to any statements made by the administration that bounds us to such, so it's silly that they are try and do that now.

Why is a one week first offense fair? First of all, second chances. I'm sure you are familiar with that term, as you allow hackers a second chance. You allow players that perpetually abuse others a second chance. You don't allow players who triedto help the servers a second chance? Obviously, reporting players does not exempt you from the rules, which I recognize. However, when this rule is hardly even advertised and we were not made aware of the responsibilities we adopted when we reported a player,who's fault is that?

It cannot be our fault. If this is going to be such a major rule, make it a much bigger deal. Put it as the first rule on the 'rules' thread, make it clear on the abuse reports, do whatever you need to do to make sure we understand these responsibilities.

Right now, it is clear there is misunderstanding on both ends.

 

[GOFORGOLDCROZ]

 

[Buxtonaters]

According to this rule shouldn't Dave be permanently banned? Over a year ago when it was found Echo_555 was previously banned for hacking Dave took it upon himself to alter the link in the report abuse section to hide Echo's hacking evidence. And then asking VebbiHD to delete the video from YouTube.
Before he could do this however, NoahSailer and a couple others downloaded the video and reuploaded it. Causing Bic to demote Echo_555. Echo was only reinstated as moderator when MCTF2 and MCSG merged, as Echo was a mod on MCTF2.

So why is Dave allowed to alter/hide hacking videos and we aren't?

Months later Chad gave Echo a pardon for this hacking ban.. But the point remains.. Dave still deleted/altered someones hacking evidence BEFORE getting approval from Chad.

 

[CAmadeusA]

CAmadeusA
1) Please, use paragraphs. That wall of text was difficult to read.

I am definitely in agreeance that this rule is completely necessary, and I can't disagree with WHY the rule is in place. What I CAN disagree with, however, is the ban length of this particular offense.

For one reason, nobody means any harm. They delete their evidence because the evidence takes up too much space (which I believe you might have briefed on.) It really should not be a player responsibility to host evidence for the staff to do with it. As a player, if we choose to adopt the responsibility of reporting hackers, we do NOT adopt the ability to store evidence for them. As far as I am made aware, we did not agree to any statements made by the administration that bounds us to such, so it's silly that they are try and do that now.

Why is a one week first offense fair? First of all, second chances. I'm sure you are familiar with that term, as you allow hackers a second chance. You allow players that perpetually abuse others a second chance. You don't allow players who triedto help the servers a second chance? Obviously, reporting players does not exempt you from the rules, which I recognize. However, when this rule is hardly even advertised and we were not made aware of the responsibilities we adopted when we reported a player,who's fault is that?

It cannot be our fault. If this is going to be such a major rule, make it a much bigger deal. Put it as the first rule on the 'rules' thread, make it clear on the abuse reports, do whatever you need to do to make sure we understand these responsibilities.

Right now, it is clear there is misunderstanding on both ends.

1) I did, and were still working on forum bugs that are causing these random malfunctions.

Had you read what I had posted, you would understand why the ban length is at what it is, but furthermore, its the sr staffs decision on what ban lengths are. Furthermore, 99% of people who remove evidence aren't trying to help the community at all. We see countless incidences where people say that they're going to remove this and that evidence in order to help their friend get unbanned. People who maliciously bring another rule breaker into our system because it will give them personal gain, don't get a second chance.
To add on, its Blatantly advertised. By using our network in any of its capacities you agree to follow our rules. Its made clear on the rules page, its made clear in the report abuse template, its even mentioned by some of our moderators when they reply to report abuses. If you "didn't know" that is on you. To address your first paragraph, please read our terms of reporting. Its been this way for a VERY long time, so please, read all the way through what I posted before jumping to places that I already covered on.

According to this rule shouldn't Dave be permanently banned? Over a year ago when it was found Echo_555 was previously banned for hacking Dave took it upon himself to alter the link in the report abuse section to hide Echo's hacking evidence. And then asking VebbiHD to delete the video from YouTube.
Before he could do this however, NoahSailer and a couple others downloaded the video and reuploaded it. Causing Bic to demote Echo_555. Echo was only reinstated as moderator when MCTF2 and MCSG merged, as Echo was a mod on MCTF2.

So why is Dave allowed to alter/hide hacking videos and we aren't?

Months later Chad gave Echo a pardon for this hacking ban.. But the point remains.. Dave still deleted/altered someones hacking evidence BEFORE getting approval from Chad.

This situation was dealt with long long ago, and dave was reprimanded as such a long time ago anyway. This is irrelevant to current conversation.