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The God Debate v3

MicrosoftSam

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Even a young, simple-minded (I say this in a non-offensive way) child who attends church will understand that God (in this case, assuming that He is real) does not heal all the time, instantly. In fact, cases of things like healing that take place within such a short time-span are incredibly infrequent - I'm shocked to have experienced that, myself.
You're now proposing something that is indistinguishable from chance. What you just proposed is a system that would work as easily well with Vishnu, Zeus, or any other god other than Yahweh. Actually, it would still work with ANYTHING. Unless you can statistically show that your god provides a more reliable "prayer to effect" ratio than the others it's literally no different than blind luck. In case your fire back with a personal experience, people who are Muslisms (who believe in Allah) have personal experiences, and so did ancient Greeks (who believed in Zeus). All groups believe their prayer works equally well, yet we don't have a shred of objective evidence to sway us in one way or another.

A quick reminder: In this case, my singular "statistic" is that praying affected/improved physical health.
Once again, even if it did "heal" you. It wouldn't be more statistically likely to be healed from praying to a milk carton than to a god. This is because A. There is no mechanism by which "praying" would effect those things. Seriously, how does a god do that? B. What about contradictory prayers? What if someone prays for one thing and someone else prays for the opposite? How does god decide? and C. If there is no objective way to statistically tell the difference between the results of praying to a milk carton or to god, then there is NO difference between them. I know you will make an excuse for this later on though.

Within Christianity, there's a belief that God does not (ordinarily) work "miracles" for those who do not have faith. An enormous part of the reason that "prayer studies" haven't typically shown results is because they're done from a perspective of unbelief, for a purpose that does not align with "God's Will" (a biblical concept).
Nope. Actually they use believers. To better address my point and to avoid writing out long paragraphs; have fun with this.

However, if I were to accidentally receive an incision the same size and then pray for 10 minutes with an earnest heart, then the Christian faith teaches that God (might) exhibit compassion and provide healing, such as in the form of a sped-up process of mending the incision.
See the above video on how you're literally psychologically shielding yourself from being wrong.

"God" is an everlasting entity, spanning beyond the capacity of imagination and logic.
What the f*** does that mean? Everlasting? What? Spanning beyond the capacity of imagination and logic? What? So it's beyond logic? So it's illogical? LOL what. I'm having a bit of trouble understanding what it even means to say that such a thing exists...

This entity is not bound by the restrictions of time or space
How is a spaceless and timeless entity any different from an entity that doesn't exist at all? A unicorn is technically spaceless and timeless too.

(thus the "a second is like a million years, and vice versa" concept), but can choose to make actions that progress within the scope of our timeline.
??? What are you even talking about dude? So god DOES exist in time and space? But not bound by the usual external restrictions we find ourselves with?

"Jesus" is a manifestation of God, who intentionally "split off" and allowed Himself to be temporarily constrained by time and space for our sake's - to be more understandable, basically.
The trinity violates the law of identity. (I assume you believe in that)
Excerpt taken from rationalwiki.org
  1. "The Father is God"
  2. "The Son is God"
  3. "The Holy Spirit is God"
  4. "God is the Father"
  5. "God is the Son"
  6. "God is the Holy Spirit"
  7. "The Father is not the Son"
  8. "The Son is not the Father"
  9. "The Father is not the Holy Spirit"
  10. "The Holy Spirit is not the Father"
  11. "The Son is not the Holy Spirit"
  12. "The Holy Spirit is not the Son"
Since
, the statements 1-6 can be restated as follows:

God = Father
God = Son
God = Holy Spirit
while the statements 7-12 can be restated as:
Father ≠ Son
Father ≠ Holy Spirit
Son ≠ Holy Spirit

Conventional logic says that equality is transitive:
. Let's start from one of the "is not" relations.

Father ≠ Son
Now let's substitute the left side with the statement "God = Father":
God ≠ Son
and then substitute the right side with "God = Son":
God ≠ God

Further application of transitivity leads to the following statements:

Son ≠ Son
Father ≠ Father
Holy Spirit ≠ Holy Spirit

We conclude that God is not God, and so the doctrine of the Trinity implies that God as well as all three persons of the Trinity violate the law of identity. One of the fundamental assumptions of conventional logic is that objects that violate the law of identity do not exist: there is no entity that is not itself. This means several things:

  • If Trinity is true, then God does not exist, and neither do any of his three persons.
  • If God exists, then by the law of noncontradiction Trinity is a false doctrine.
  • If God exists and Trinity is true, it can mean two things:
    • Logic is meaningless, because it is possible to prove anything, including the existence and the non-existence of God.
    • Trinity means something else than its Christian definition.
I'm sure researching can give you a much better explanation of this than I can - however, it's absolutely crucial to be researching from a neutral point of view. Perhaps try all three perspectives - against, neutral, and for. It seems like quite a few of your sources in the past were "against", and that can sometimes make for a weaker argument. (unless that side of the argument has been proven to be correct/true without any doubt.)
I don't know what your issue with my "sources" are, but obviously if you can't provide a defense against them they are correct by default. There is nothing you can do about it. Here is a fundamental issue with proving the whole concept and it IS on the neutral side. Basically, it's other religions. Other religons claimed to have the word of god and their prophets preform miracles.

Your options are
  1. They are telling the truth. Or
  2. They are not.
If they are, Christianity cannot be true.
If they aren't, then you just admitted that sometimes, gee whiz, people can, for any reason, actually write things down on paper that didn't really happen in real life... which further contradicts your faith.

  1. person A interpret's a specific passage of the Bible literally
  2. someone else, person B, goes, "oh, so you mean the ENTIRE world was created in 144 hours?" (6x24)
  3. person A either explains that he/she was talking about only that one passage, or explains the new issue that was raised, or tries to do both.
  4. person B asks about a new issue that doesn't quite follow either line of logic, because it was written in a different context or something
  5. person A explains that new part
  6. person B says, "well then why do people say that ___ was the case, when you just said that this verse talks about _(other)_ subject?"
  7. person A has to explain that the passage was talking about BOTH FREAKIN' THINGS (whoops, almost wrote a swear word. wrong website.)
  8. person B points out that it doesn't make sense
  9. person A has to help person B understand what the "Living Word" is
  10. five minutes later, person B forgets about the "Living Word" concept again.
You keep ranting about this "living word" concept. Honestly I don't know what the f*** that means. Please tell me what it is, then tell me how can this be used to make predictions in objective reality? Moreover, why are you only interpreting Genesis as metaphor AFTER science has proved it wrong?


TLDR? I'm honestly disappointed. Most of what you said is nonsensical gibberish and I expected much better from you. Thanks for the quick debate though.


Bruh.
 

Tenebrous

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mine is too, btw, i just filter myself very heavily.
and i literally earned bragging rights - seriously, I was given them by MCGamer. When it comes to arrogance, i sort of have a degree of immunity from the MCGamer Awards. Part of the prize was "bragging rights".



once i get into writing, that's another story. i don't stop till i find a place where i'm comfortable breaking it off. my issue lies with being challenged into actually making a post in the first place, since any forumer from 2013/2014 knows that i don't typically back down from challenges.

and although i suppose i can see why you'd call it complaining, it's more like expressing dissatisfaction - but that's pretty much the same thing, in a fancier way.

the original reason i was on this thread was because I was tagged - the reason I actually made a post was because i was laughing at some of the things people were saying and wanted to make a few casual remarks.

then, tene came up and wanted to start a "conversation" which he took way beyond a conversation. (which i normally dont mind, but perhaps i wasnt clear when i tried to imply that i wasn't looking for a debate, just something on the side.)

seriously, take another look - i made an off-hand remark that was actually somewhere along the same wing as tene, and then he asked about starting up the old debate.



and for the record, i don't think i'm trying to achieve anything.
i clearly stated (somewhere in at least one of my posts on this thread) that i'm not trying to convert anyone.


lol what a memer


mm i always did despise my grade 4 teacher


there's an OT, too...


that was my way of saying that you're asking for the impossible. you're literally asking me to define what IS defined (in a slightly different sense of the word) as "indefinable".


oh, but can we disprove the square circle?

;]

jk yeah we can but the same type of question applies


didn't i just agree with that?

the crux of this particular matter of confusion is that, in this case, being illogical is what it's supposed to be.

"logic gets thrown out the window"


refer to "indefinable"

("undefinable"? google is confused on this matter.)


except we can trace a bunch of these people back through the events of history
so yeah, that's a thing..


isn't that what i just said?



OH WHOA THIS SONG IS FRKKN INTENSE

okay back on track
(sorry [notsrry] im not really taking this too seriously..)


fun prediction facts:

i was able to predict the exact number of days before a couple broke up. (9 days)
i was able to predict that i'd sleep with a girl (no, not sexually) - who, when, and where.
i was able to predict 6 completely different girls that would develop crushes on me in the past 14 months, most of them at least a month ahead. i'm currently in the process of the 7th and 8th, and so far it's looking like i'm going to be right again - this time, my predictions were 6 and 4 months ago

coincidence.
#f***boy


but yeah those are pretty meaningless predictions if we're being brutally honest
still funny, though


oh and one of my friends' league of legends smurf name is "Predictionary"
so that's (ir)relevant

why don't we go talk about the pope or something, that's easier to laugh about.











why am i even still typing im so off-topic
there's an OT, too...
I thought that doesn't apply anymore according to your theology?

that was my way of saying that you're asking for the impossible. you're literally asking me to define what IS defined (in a slightly different sense of the word) as "indefinable".
You defined god as being indefinable. That's not a definition.

the crux of this particular matter of confusion is that, in this case, being illogical is what it's supposed to be.
Why wouldn't logic apply? Logic applies universally and without it we can just make obviously ridiculous claims with no restrictions such as 2+2=5, 2^3=21, etc.

except we can trace a bunch of these people back through the events of history
so yeah, that's a thing..

Noah almost certainly never existed
Abraham probably never existed
Moses almost certainly never existed
Jesus is an extremely dubious character / may have existed or may have not.

Yes, some of them existed (like Pilate), but it was common for people to embellish fictional characters into real life situations and write them off as history. There is a myriad of examples I could pull from to illustrate my point if you'd like.

isn't that what i just said?
Subjectivity is not an accurate way of forming beliefs about reality.

i was able to predict the exact number of days before a couple broke up. (9 days)
i was able to predict that i'd sleep with a girl (no, not sexually) - who, when, and where.
i was able to predict 6 completely different girls that would develop crushes on me in the past 14 months, most of them at least a month ahead. i'm currently in the process of the 7th and 8th, and so far it's looking like i'm going to be right again - this time, my predictions were 6 and 4 months ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prediction#Prediction_in_science
This is elementary level science.
 

Mooclan

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not even going to get back into this thread that much, but..

i was able to predict the exact number of days before a couple broke up. (9 days)
i was able to predict that i'd sleep with a girl (no, not sexually) - who, when, and where.
i was able to predict 6 completely different girls that would develop crushes on me in the past 14 months, most of them at least a month ahead. i'm currently in the process of the 7th and 8th, and so far it's looking like i'm going to be right again - this time, my predictions were 6 and 4 months ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prediction#Prediction_in_science
This is elementary level science.
this part was pretty much a joke.

i mean, i wasn't lying about the predictions, but i wasn't being serious when i wrote it.

Stop posting so much text... I can't read that much without cutting!
this, on the other hand, is taking a joke too far.
i'll be contacting staff.
 

xX_CraftyCrafter03_Xx

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I'd love to believe their is a god out there. Someone watching over us, keeping us safe. But at the same time, I can't bring myself to believe it. I was raised Christian, but I never really believed there was god. I would pray anyway, because if there was a slight chance of him being real, I would love to have his wishes of well being. So, I don't know where I stand at this point.
 

MrExtrodinaryMr

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I'd love to believe their is a god out there. Someone watching over us, keeping us safe. But at the same time, I can't bring myself to believe it. I was raised Christian, but I never really believed there was god. I would pray anyway, because if there was a slight chance of him being real, I would love to have his wishes of well being. So, I don't know where I stand at this point.
Problem is how do you know the god you're praying for is the right god.
 
N

Nikola

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Pretty much life is:

- born
- play video games
- get a gf
- make kids
- die

what happens after u die well you can find out right now or you could wait another 50 years depends on you and I believe in god just because my family does but i never pray and do all of that stuff so im in the middle
 

MrExtrodinaryMr

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Hey staff could you move this thread to Community Corner? Would be nice to have the discussion going. -__-
 

AquaTechMC

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Honestly, I find this thread and the responses very interesting. I like to stay very open minded on almost all topics brought forward. I think that's the best way to work around controversial things.
 

Tenebrous

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There is no definite way to prove there is or is not a God. That being said, I'm agnostic.

I'd like to believe with every ounce of my being that there is a God, but I can't really bring myself to that point in my life right now.
There is no definite way to prove there is or is not a God. That being said, I'm agnostic.

I'd like to believe with every ounce of my being that there is a God, but I can't really bring myself to that point in my life right now.
You must remember that agnosticism is not a belief. There are agnostic theists as well as agnostic atheists. Agnosticism is simply a position on knowledge.

Let me break it down for you.

If you do not believe in a god then you are an atheist.

If you believe in a god then you are a theist.

If you believe that knowledge of god's existence is impossible (agnosticism) then you are an atheist.
 

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