Thinking About Consciousness...

[BitoBain]

So I've been thinking about consciousness a lot lately.

Well after thinking about it a lot, I might have come to the conclusion that simple mechanical objects might have consciousnesses. And I want to know what you think.

The human brain is, in a sense, an object that relies entirely on physics and mechanics to achieve its conscious state. A similar thing could be said for an ant, for example, though the ant may be less self-conscious. Now, this is assuming that conscious beings don't have souls.

Given a large enough space, time, and materials, it could be conceived that you could recreate the brain of an animal with gears, levers, and other mechanical objects. At that point you would have a consciousness made completely free of electrons and neurons. You would have a set of gears and levers capable of feeling emotions such as love and worry. And it would be aware of itself.

My question is, at what point would that mechanical machine lose its self-consciousness? Or would it never? (In which case every mechanical device that interacts with the environment around it is conscious) And is it ever conceivable that mankind could create a self-conscious mechanical object free of electricity, electrons, and neurons? Or do you consider it impossible that a mechanical object achieves consciousness in the first place?

Some people who I would love to hear from:
Mooclan Tenebrous12321 Jusser Ceroria CAmadeusA Miner9823 RC_4777
(But I would like to hear from anyone, really!)

 

[MoLoToV]

Unless the brain has a way to expand his thoughts by it's own I don't believe you could call it consciousness. It would be doing what you made it to do, it will love the things you made it to love, it would worry about the things you wanted him to worry about etc.

 

[Tenebrous]

This is a very interesting topic and I have been thinking quite a bit about it lately.

Consciousness, at least in my opinion, emerges from the connection that you have to the outside world. Without your senses, I do not believe something can be considered "conscious". I think that without qualia (experience) the entity would lack awareness of it's surroundings. However I don't know how verifiable this claim is, as it's just my opinion.

Now this whole idea of souls/consciousness is a whole other category, I will explain the various positions on it and which ones I subscribe to.

This next idea doesn't fit into the below categories but I thought it was interesting nonetheless.
Solipsism- Solipsists assert that only the self can be known to exist. A form of Solipsism is the brain in a vat idea. It's the philosophical assertion that you are just that; a brain in a vat. Your experience of the world is just your brain being placed in a vat and then given external stimuli that makes it seem like you're experiencing reality. It's kind of like the matrix. Another form of this is called p-zombies. This says that you are the only mind and every one else exists but is not conscious. Everyone else only appears to be conscious but is not actually.

The following philosophical concepts fall into distinct categories.

*Realism - This philosophy says that the mind has no direct effect on reality, and that the mind was created by reality, not the other way around.
- Monism - Realistic Monism says that there is only one type of substance, and that consciousness is made of material as an emergent process of physical systems. Realistic Monism is very similar to Physicalism and Materialism.
- Dualism - Realistic Dualism says that there are two types of substance, that there is the material world and then consciousness is made of an immaterial "soul stuff". ( René Descartes believed this)
- Pluralism - Same thing as above, but there are more than two fundamental "substances"

*Idealism - This philosophy says that the mind directly effects reality, and that the mind essentially creates reality.
- Subjective Idealism - This is the position described above
- Dual Aspect Idealism - This is like Dualism, but for Idealism. It asserts that there is material (the material is created by the mind though), and that there is also an immaterial mind, soul, or consciousness.
- Pluralistic Idealism - This asserts that multiple minds are required to "create" reality.

*Mysterianism - The Idea that it is impossible to know what consciousness is. That humans simply lack the ability to understand it. People such as Roger Penrose have this position.

Personally, I find it very difficult to accept that something like a soul/mind/consciousness exists outside of the material (substance dualism).

QualiaSoup has two very good videos addressing the issues of substance dualism (believing that the mind is immaterial) and I recommend you check them out.

@ Your Questions
"My question is, at what point would that mechanical machine lose its self-consciousness?"
When it can no longer assess the outside world with senses.

"Or would it never? (In which case every mechanical device that interacts with the environment around it is conscious)"
It has to have direct sensory input. If every thing is conscious it's kind of like panpsychism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panpsychism.

"And is it ever conceivable that mankind could create a self-conscious mechanical object free of electricity, electrons, and neurons?"
If we can make/find something that has similar function to electrons, electricity, neurons, axons, etc.

"Or do you consider it impossible that a mechanical object achieves consciousness in the first place?"
We are mechanical objects.


.

 

[Tenebrous]

BitoBain Should be good to go, it was sort of rushed so I apologize if I have spelling errors.

 

[Jusser]

I'd put the time to make a well crafted essay outlining my "highly sophisticated argument" but I just don't care enough lol. That is @Tenebrous1232's job x)

I think every animal has consciousness, to what extent is the question that must be answered. Humans, as far as we know, have the most sophisticated minds since we are the only known beings that ask questions about our universe. If a dog's litter of puppies died, it would feel pain and sadness like the rest of us, but not ask questions like "Why is there suffering". It simply lives on the instinctful mourning that comes with loss... Too lazy to continue as I'm also at work atm but I don't think consciousness can be created.

 

[CrackaStoleMyKFC]

Bruhh... that sh*t hurt my brain o_o

 

[BitoBain]

Sorry for the slow response...

Unless the brain has a way to expand his thoughts by it's own I don't believe you could call it consciousness. It would be doing what you made it to do, it will love the things you made it to love, it would worry about the things you wanted him to worry about etc.

I'm not sure that a conscious object has to be able expand necessarily since human brains obviously have a finite amount of memory. However I do agree it must be able to learn and process information, which does require memory to be available. I guess this would be comparable to a computer's RAM.

This is a very interesting topic and I have been thinking quite a bit about it lately.

Consciousness, at least in my opinion, emerges from the connection that you have to the outside world. Without your senses, I do not believe something can be considered "conscious". I think that without qualia (experience) the entity would lack awareness of it's surroundings. However I don't know how verifiable this claim is, as it's just my opinion.

Now this whole idea of souls/consciousness is a whole other category, I will explain the various positions on it and which ones I subscribe to.

This next idea doesn't fit into the below categories but I thought it was interesting nonetheless.
Solipsism- Solipsists assert that only the self can be known to exist. A form of Solipsism is the brain in a vat idea. It's the philosophical assertion that you are just that; a brain in a vat. Your experience of the world is just your brain being placed in a vat and then given external stimuli that makes it seem like you're experiencing reality. It's kind of like the matrix. Another form of this is called p-zombies. This says that you are the only mind and every one else exists but is not conscious. Everyone else only appears to be conscious but is not actually.

The following philosophical concepts fall into distinct categories.

*Realism - This philosophy says that the mind has no direct effect on reality, and that the mind was created by reality, not the other way around.
- Monism - Realistic Monism says that there is only one type of substance, and that consciousness is made of material as an emergent process of physical systems. Realistic Monism is very similar to Physicalism and Materialism.
- Dualism - Realistic Dualism says that there are two types of substance, that there is the material world and then consciousness is made of an immaterial "soul stuff". ( René Descartes believed this)
- Pluralism - Same thing as above, but there are more than two fundamental "substances"

*Idealism - This philosophy says that the mind directly effects reality, and that the mind essentially creates reality.
- Subjective Idealism - This is the position described above
- Dual Aspect Idealism - This is like Dualism, but for Idealism. It asserts that there is material (the material is created by the mind though), and that there is also an immaterial mind, soul, or consciousness.
- Pluralistic Idealism - This asserts that multiple minds are required to "create" reality.

*Mysterianism - The Idea that it is impossible to know what consciousness is. That humans simply lack the ability to understand it. People such as Roger Penrose have this position.

Personally, I find it very difficult to accept that something like a soul/mind/consciousness exists outside of the material (substance dualism).

QualiaSoup has two very good videos addressing the issues of substance dualism (believing that the mind is immaterial) and I recommend you check them out.

Wish I could give this post 100 likes!

Consciousness definitely requires sensory input. I didn't think about this at first, but now I realize it is true. In the case of a robot, that would mean simply giving it cameras or microphones, so it's not a big issue.

With consciousness, it does seem there is quite a large controversy and it is essentially impossible to prove one side right or wrong. I watched some of QualiaSoup and it had good info. The impression I get is that though substance dualism is a possible way to describe the structure of consciousness, it lacks evidence. In my opinion, humans may gravitate towards substance dualism simply because they find their own minds bafflingly intricate. Were our minds less complex, we would more easily accept that consciousness is the result of mechanical processes.

@ Your Questions
"My question is, at what point would that mechanical machine lose its self-consciousness?"
When it can no longer assess the outside world with senses.

"Or would it never? (In which case every mechanical device that interacts with the environment around it is conscious)"
It has to have direct sensory input. If every thing is conscious it's kind of like panpsychism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panpsychism.

"And is it ever conceivable that mankind could create a self-conscious mechanical object free of electricity, electrons, and neurons?"
If we can make/find something that has similar function to electrons, electricity, neurons, axons, etc.

"Or do you consider it impossible that a mechanical object achieves consciousness in the first place?"
We are mechanical objects.

Your answer my first question seems logical, but I still wonder if knowing that you exist counts as a sense. The definition of a sense is something that gives a being information about the universe. But then again, can you know you exist without of sensory input? We can think without getting input as humans, but we have all received input before. When you do mental multiplication you are aware of your thoughts yet you are not receiving sensory input. Yet to initiate the process of doing mental math you need to be told to do it in some way. So in the end, I suppose I still agree with you, but it is odd, and I suppose in order to be conscious your thoughts must be initiated by your senses.

I think the other answers make sense. So in conclusion I guess you can produce a mechanical object (besides an organism) that is conscious provided enough materials and sensory input. (Assuming realism or materialism, which are more supported by the scientific community) Weird to think about gears and levers having thoughts.