Asking for Advice about a Friend in Need

[Tenebrous]

*puts down popcorn*

This has been an interesting read, and im not going to get too involved, but I do have a few comments to make... Now, I may not be as fancy with my verbiage as Mooclan or as you're trying to be Tenebrous12321, but I think simplest terms might be the best.

So, few constructive criticisms, Tene, you're throwing around a lot of fancy words, but a lot of it doesn't necessarily fit with the content you're trying to argue for. Based on work out of Princeton in three studies, research shows that using big/fancy words it's shown that using these kinds terms gives a general psychological impression that you're not as smart as you may be, makes your point less clear to the common man, and reduces your chances at a higher education. Now, if you really want me to go dig up these studies, I will, but I think that if you take it with a grain of salt, you may be able to strengthen your argument significantly. I think if nothing else, this was one of Mooclan's main points.

Few for Mooclan as well;
First, welcome back to the forums my old friend.
Second, I think with this newer generation of discussion leaders, we cannot be as cynical as you tend to be in these posts. If anything, we need to show them how it truly works by example, and surely by not insulting their ability; else that simply forces their hand at more aggression.

Now, @TheBothOfYou, this is obviously not asking about the internal theistic repercussions of the religion and the logic of them... However, as someone who has spent more than three years studying these sorts of things, there is logical merit to just about any argument you want to make based on your world view. Remember logic is only mind games and if your mind is skewed one way or another, your logic may be different from someone else's. It all depends on your core beliefs.

@TheOriginalPoster, Obviously your friend has free reign to believe as she wants in the modern world, (mostly) regardless of which western nation she's in. If you want my solid suggestion, find a mentor in the things she's interested in, and learn about them, and make a decision based on what she learned and which benefited her the most. If its comforting to believe in a perfect, all powerful, all knowing, and all present deity, so let her. If she is violently opposed to the idea, research the core values of agnosticism/atheism. Or any of the other dozens of the worlds religions. Obviously the "right answer" here will be entirely relative to whom is answering the question. Which will ultimately be your friend. Overall, wish him/her the best of luck, its a tough decision to make.

Hope this has helped with some things, and there isnt as much (be it interesting) conflict happening here. (Also, forgive any spelling/grammar mistakes, I typed this up quickly and its 1:30 am).

(((And I dont need to quote a lot of things to make my posts long )))

I understand this, I'm not intentionally using them to sound smart though. I use them because that's the word I happen to use in the situation.
@ Your assertion that logic will differ
I spent a decent amount of time explaining the epistemology of evidentialism. (Yes that word is used correctly there. ) I was explaining why his position is most likely wrong.

 

[BitoBain]

I understand this, I'm not intentionally using them to sound smart though. I use them because that's the word I happen to use in the situation.
@ Your assertion that logic will differ
I spent a decent amount of time explaining the epistemology of evidentialism. (Yes that word is used correctly there. ) I was explaining why his position is most likely wrong.

I like your arguments and I find you to be a very logical person, but it would be easier to follow what you were saying if you used easier words. I had to google words you used a few more times than I would have liked. You might get less misunderstandings that way.

 

[Col_StaR]

....
When you can consistently school me as well as Col_StaR was able to, and even he didn't seem to have an easy job, then and only then will I allow rude remarks to pass off as a joke, which this clearly wasn't.
....

For the record, you always put up a good, fair fight.

I'd love to pitch my two cents into the Tene-Moo debate, but I know that would be a fruitless matter. I used to be a member of the hardcore anti-religion movement and got into many of these fights myself, but I realized that so much of the conflict was pointless. Here's a few questions that I really had to ask myself before I admitted that theology debates are not worth the effort.

• Why bother trying to convince others with rational arguments when studies show that personal bias trumps facts and logic?
• Assuming that even if scripture is truly holy and divine, if so much of scripture is based on human interpretation, then wouldn't scripture itself be as flawed as its human interpretation?
• If there have been thousands of gods in the history of human civilization, and each of them has had supporters who waged wars in their name, then who is to say that my god is more true than their god?
• And the one that ultimately turned me away from hardcore atheism: Is it really my place to tell others how to live?

I now embrace all moderate and tolerant religions, and will openly accept and respect whatever religion I come across. Why worry about someone's stupid beliefs if everyone's beliefs may be stupid (including yours)? Once you reach that step, you stop worrying about religious differences and start to love everyone because/in spite of them. And that's what I believe any truly just and divine god/deity/Flying Spaghetti Monster would aspire for the human race.

And that's what I would want to say to your friend, BitoBain: no one should determine what she believes in except for her. If she was religious growing up but is currently having doubts, then she should feel comfortable dabbling in other religions or non-religions at her own pace; if there is a true god out there for her (or equally a lack thereof), it should become obvious to her on her own. And if people won't support her, like if her family chooses to pariah her because she's not "one of them" because of a religious difference... then frankly, she would be better off without such close-minded company in the end.

Support her, encourage her, give her time and space to grow and discover for herself. Maybe dabble in a few beliefs here and there to see what fits and what doesn't. As long as she respects everyone and their beliefs equally, I don't care what she believes in: she's good in my book, as she will be for many others' as well. But at the end of the day it's a big decision for her, and her alone. At the end of the universe, it will all become evident anyways.

Also, hello forums. It's been a while.

 

[Hovic]

I understand this, I'm not intentionally using them to sound smart though. I use them because that's the word I happen to use in the situation.
@ Your assertion that logic will differ
I spent a decent amount of time explaining the epistemology of evidentialism. (Yes that word is used correctly there. ) I was explaining why his position is most likely wrong.

o damn
tene is smart af
i dont know 69 percent of those words
yes!11!1

 

[Tenebrous]

For the record, you always put up a good, fair fight.

I'd love to pitch my two cents into the Tene-Moo debate, but I know that would be a fruitless matter. I used to be a member of the hardcore anti-religion movement and got into many of these fights myself, but I realized that so much of the conflict was pointless. Here's a few questions that I really had to ask myself before I admitted that theology debates are not worth the effort.

• Why bother trying to convince others with rational arguments when studies show that personal bias trumps facts and logic?
• Assuming that even if scripture is truly holy and divine, if so much of scripture is based on human interpretation, then wouldn't scripture itself be as flawed as its human interpretation?
• If there have been thousands of gods in the history of human civilization, and each of them has had supporters who waged wars in their name, then who is to say that my god is more true than their god?
• And the one that ultimately turned me away from hardcore atheism: Is it really my place to tell others how to live?

I now embrace all moderate and tolerant religions, and will openly accept and respect whatever religion I come across. Why worry about someone's stupid beliefs if everyone's beliefs may be stupid (including yours)? Once you reach that step, you stop worrying about religious differences and start to love everyone because/in spite of them. And that's what I believe any truly just and divine god/deity/Flying Spaghetti Monster would aspire for the human race.

And that's what I would want to say to your friend, BitoBain: no one should determine what she believes in except for her. If she was religious growing up but is currently having doubts, then she should feel comfortable dabbling in other religions or non-religions at her own pace; if there is a true god out there for her (or equally a lack thereof), it should become obvious to her on her own. And if people won't support her, like if her family chooses to pariah her because she's not "one of them" because of a religious difference... then frankly, she would be better off without such close-minded company in the end.

Support her, encourage her, give her time and space to grow and discover for herself. Maybe dabble in a few beliefs here and there to see what fits and what doesn't. As long as she respects everyone and their beliefs equally, I don't care what she believes in: she's good in my book, as she will be for many others' as well. But at the end of the day it's a big decision for her, and her alone. At the end of the universe, it will all become evident anyways.

Also, hello forums. It's been a while.

I don't even consider myself an atheist lol

 

[BitoBain]

For the record, you always put up a good, fair fight.

I'd love to pitch my two cents into the Tene-Moo debate, but I know that would be a fruitless matter. I used to be a member of the hardcore anti-religion movement and got into many of these fights myself, but I realized that so much of the conflict was pointless. Here's a few questions that I really had to ask myself before I admitted that theology debates are not worth the effort.

• Why bother trying to convince others with rational arguments when studies show that personal bias trumps facts and logic?
• Assuming that even if scripture is truly holy and divine, if so much of scripture is based on human interpretation, then wouldn't scripture itself be as flawed as its human interpretation?
• If there have been thousands of gods in the history of human civilization, and each of them has had supporters who waged wars in their name, then who is to say that my god is more true than their god?
• And the one that ultimately turned me away from hardcore atheism: Is it really my place to tell others how to live?

I now embrace all moderate and tolerant religions, and will openly accept and respect whatever religion I come across. Why worry about someone's stupid beliefs if everyone's beliefs may be stupid (including yours)? Once you reach that step, you stop worrying about religious differences and start to love everyone because/in spite of them. And that's what I believe any truly just and divine god/deity/Flying Spaghetti Monster would aspire for the human race.

And that's what I would want to say to your friend, BitoBain: no one should determine what she believes in except for her. If she was religious growing up but is currently having doubts, then she should feel comfortable dabbling in other religions or non-religions at her own pace; if there is a true god out there for her (or equally a lack thereof), it should become obvious to her on her own. And if people won't support her, like if her family chooses to pariah her because she's not "one of them" because of a religious difference... then frankly, she would be better off without such close-minded company in the end.

Support her, encourage her, give her time and space to grow and discover for herself. Maybe dabble in a few beliefs here and there to see what fits and what doesn't. As long as she respects everyone and their beliefs equally, I don't care what she believes in: she's good in my book, as she will be for many others' as well. But at the end of the day it's a big decision for her, and her alone. At the end of the universe, it will all become evident anyways.

Also, hello forums. It's been a while.

I'm honored and surprised to see a post from Col_Star here.

You bring up some great points! I agree that theological debates are almost never worth the effort. People have biases that control their worldview regardless of the information placed before them. People never change their views. I've also seen that people tend to believe what benefits their own life. They deny ideas that require action that they don't want to take or cause a major lifestyle or worldview shift. This is likely why scientific ideas often take so long to catch on. (Or in the case of the present, climate change)

However, I am optimistic that truth about the universe will become more accepted as time goes on. Evolution was an inconvenient truth for many people that eventually became accepted, along with the idea that the earth is round and revolves around the sun. Even the idea that smoking causes lung cancer wasn't accepted until a few decades ago. (People didn't want to believe that because they liked smoking.) My hope is that through the natural processes of society, there will come both more religious acceptance, (which may be a problem for my friend and her family) and a better understanding of the universe.

 

[Jimmer]

Well, this has been an extremely interesting thread to read. I've spent the better part of an hour reading this and trying to decipher all of the arguments. I wasn't actually going to respond to this thread at all for fear of stepping on some peoples' toes, but in the end I could not resist. I apologize if at all during this response I offend anyone - that is not the intention whatsoever. I simply wish to present my perspective to everyone.

I'm not nearly as smart as either Mooclan or Tenebrous12321, I freely admit it. As a lowly English major from Trent University in Canada, I don't nearly have the formal schooling nor philosophical background that is necessary in order to really insert myself into this argument. However, as an innocent bystander (please don't shoot me), I'd like to mention a couple of points that I noticed in the discussion.

@FellowCanadian, Eh: Your arguments are generally very sound. Although that statement may have some personal bias to it as I am an admirer of both your forum exploits and your theological arguments, I'm still going to say it. Regarding your overall debating tactics, I believe that the key to religious debates in the 21st century is to explain yourself in a manner that any human being can both understand, and relate to. Before I have angry dissenters descend upon me and explain away as to why that is such a hypocritical statement, know this. When I state that it is important to avoid both literal and figurative language enjambment, I do not speak for my religion (Christianity). Yes, I admit that there are some Christian debaters who have it wrong. I cringe at the screaming evangelists that come to your door and shove materials in your face, begging you to join their church group for just one solitary Thursday night. To me, that's not the way Christianity should be portrayed.

The Bible says in Matthew 28:19-20, "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." Now obviously, I'm not refuting that what the Bible says regarding evangelizing and spreading faith is completely false. I went to Nova Scotia a couple years back for a missions trip, and happily took part in the very same activities - walking down the sun-lit beach and giving out gospel tracts and Vacation-Bible-School flyers to anyone who had ears to hear and eyes to view me.

What I'm trying to say is that people need to understand and come to terms with their faith themselves. I'm not going to be the one to tell someone, "you need to understand this and believe this because of X, Y, and Z." My personal belief (and this has changed since I came back from Nova Scotia), is that if someone wants to place their faith in an almighty deity and worship him as the son of God, or any other form of God, so be it. I will lovingly support them with every fiber of my being, because in the end: it's about loving other people, not vindicating why your belief is better than someone else's because of A, B, and C points. If you doubt the authenticity of this view, the Bible clearly asks us to love our neighbours as ourselves, as found in Mark's re-telling of the Ten Commandments. Mark 12:31 says,"The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

Overall, good showing dude. I'm impressed with your arguments and the way you portrayed them. Bravo to you. By the way, I sent you a PM regarding some old stuff I wanted to talk to you about. You should read it.

@Tenebrous: For you, I have a few other remarks. I'm sorry that they won't be as positive as my comments for Moo, but I'll try to be as unbiased as possible. I am a Christian, so please know that I don't wish to impose any false sense of superiority on you.

You use a lot of big words that I had to Google quite a few times. Epistemology? Axiomatically? These are just two examples. As I went into in detail above in my comments for Moo, in the 21st century you need to appeal to every audience when formulating your argument - especially in a setting such as this. The MCGamer forums is a place where children go to have fun and hang out with their friends. If a thirteen year old kid came across this thread and tried to make sense of the banter between you and Moo, the kid likely wouldn't get very far. Heck, I'm an 18 year old guy who goes to a well-respected university in one of the most advanced and politically stable countries in the world, and on top of that: I'm an English major. I write for an education. As someone who has a fairly sizable command of the English language, I found it somewhat humorous that I had trouble deciphering your argument in some instances. My advice for next time is to try and get your points across without a) using flowery language and large words that only a select few can understand, and b) insulting your opponent in a roundabout manner, a method I noticed you employed several times over the course of your responses. Obviously, you are under no obligation to heed any of my suggestions. I'm simply speaking from what I saw as an objective third party individual that viewed the argument from an outside point of view.

In terms of your overall performance, I'm impressed with you as well. Just like Moo, you put forth some good points, and I applaud your overall argument. It was extremely well-formulated and you had the sources to back them up. While the sources were not always reliable, they were sources nonetheless. For that, I applaud you.

Now, to turn to what the original poster of the thread stated, I've got this response for you. Ultimately, it all comes down to what is right for you. BitoBain, my advice to you is to simply be his/her friend. The greatest thing you can do for someone is to listen. as someone who is speaking from personal experience, I can say with confidence that a listening ear is one of the greatest gifts you can ever bestow upon someone. Fun fact that nobody in the community knows (and y'all will be the first to know, how lucky you are), I have several conditions, both mental and physical, that inhibit my daily ability to function properly. To name a few: anorexia, depression, suicidal thoughts, abusive guardians, GAD (Generalized Anxiety Disorder), and GSAD (Generalized Social Anxiety Disorder). These (and many more) issues plague my lifestyle, until it gets to the point where I am unable to leave my bed. I've spent days at a time lying in bed because I am too afraid to leave my "comfort zone", so to speak. Thankfully, I am lucky enough to have a girlfriend who is my best friend, a person who can always listen to my problems (and God knows I have a lot of them). There will be days when I have anxiety attack after anxiety attack worrying about various issues. I thank God every day that I've been blessed with someone who is willing to listen to my messed up life and everything that is wrong with it.

Bito, the best thing you can do is listen. As I just related, my life would be so much less than it is now if I didn't have someone to talk to. Obviously, your friend is going through a rough emotional patch right now. If you can spend some time listening to your friend and allowing them to open up to you regarding whether they should leave their religion, or stay in the current one, I can guarantee you that your friendship will grow exponentially. As long as you listen with an open heart and an open mind that is free from personal and religion bias, I promise you that your friend will appreciate your effort.

Note: yo, Col_StaR. It's good to see you man. We all miss you.

Note 2: I'm sorry if I got a little carried away in my response. I see a controversial topic such as this, and my old Sr. Staff brain kicks in and I just can't help myself. If anyone has any questions at all, please feel free to respond and I'll try to help you understand my points further.

 

[Hovic]

Well, this has been an extremely interesting thread to read. I've spent the better part of an hour reading this and trying to decipher all of the arguments. I wasn't actually going to respond to this thread at all for fear of stepping on some peoples' toes, but in the end I could not resist. I apologize if at all during this response I offend anyone - that is not the intention whatsoever. I simply wish to present my perspective to everyone.

I'm not nearly as smart as either Mooclan or Tenebrous12321, I freely admit it. As a lowly English major from Trent University in Canada, I don't nearly have the formal schooling nor philosophical background that is necessary in order to really insert myself into this argument. However, as an innocent bystander (please don't shoot me), I'd like to mention a couple of points that I noticed in the discussion.

@FellowCanadian, Eh: Your arguments are generally very sound. Although that statement may have some personal bias to it as I am an admirer of both your forum exploits and your theological arguments, I'm still going to say it. Regarding your overall debating tactics, I believe that the key to religious debates in the 21st century is to explain yourself in a manner that any human being can both understand, and relate to. Before I have angry dissenters descend upon me and explain away as to why that is such a hypocritical statement, know this. When I state that it is important to avoid both literal and figurative language enjambment, I do not speak for my religion (Christianity). Yes, I admit that there are some Christian debaters who have it wrong. I cringe at the screaming evangelists that come to your door and shove materials in your face, begging you to join their church group for just one solitary Thursday night. To me, that's not the way Christianity should be portrayed.

The Bible says in Matthew 28:19-20, "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." Now obviously, I'm not refuting that what the Bible says regarding evangelizing and spreading faith is completely false. I went to Nova Scotia a couple years back for a missions trip, and happily took part in the very same activities - walking down the sun-lit beach and giving out gospel tracts and Vacation-Bible-School flyers to anyone who had ears to hear and eyes to view me.

What I'm trying to say is that people need to understand and come to terms with their faith themselves. I'm not going to be the one to tell someone, "you need to understand this and believe this because of X, Y, and Z." My personal belief (and this has changed since I came back from Nova Scotia), is that if someone wants to place their faith in an almighty deity and worship him as the son of God, or any other form of God, so be it. I will lovingly support them with every fiber of my being, because in the end: it's about loving other people, not vindicating why your belief is better than someone else's because of A, B, and C points. If you doubt the authenticity of this view, the Bible clearly asks us to love our neighbours as ourselves, as found in Mark's re-telling of the Ten Commandments. Mark 12:31 says,"The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

Overall, good showing dude. I'm impressed with your arguments and the way you portrayed them. Bravo to you. By the way, I sent you a PM regarding some old stuff I wanted to talk to you about. You should read it.

@Tenebrous: For you, I have a few other remarks. I'm sorry that they won't be as positive as my comments for Moo, but I'll try to be as unbiased as possible. I am a Christian, so please know that I don't wish to impose any false sense of superiority on you.

You use a lot of big words that I had to Google quite a few times. Epistemology? Axiomatically? These are just two examples. As I went into in detail above in my comments for Moo, in the 21st century you need to appeal to every audience when formulating your argument - especially in a setting such as this. The MCGamer forums is a place where children go to have fun and hang out with their friends. If a thirteen year old kid came across this thread and tried to make sense of the banter between you and Moo, the kid likely wouldn't get very far. Heck, I'm an 18 year old guy who goes to a well-respected university in one of the most advanced and politically stable countries in the world, and on top of that: I'm an English major. I write for an education. As someone who has a fairly sizable command of the English language, I found it somewhat humorous that I had trouble deciphering your argument in some instances. My advice for next time is to try and get your points across without a) using flowery language and large words that only a select few can understand, and b) insulting your opponent in a roundabout manner, a method I noticed you employed several times over the course of your responses. Obviously, you are under no obligation to heed any of my suggestions. I'm simply speaking from what I saw as an objective third party individual that viewed the argument from an outside point of view.

In terms of your overall performance, I'm impressed with you as well. Just like Moo, you put forth some good points, and I applaud your overall argument. It was extremely well-formulated and you had the sources to back them up. While the sources were not always reliable, they were sources nonetheless. For that, I applaud you.

Now, to turn to what the original poster of the thread stated, I've got this response for you. Ultimately, it all comes down to what is right for you. BitoBain, my advice to you is to simply be his/her friend. The greatest thing you can do for someone is to listen. as someone who is speaking from personal experience, I can say with confidence that a listening ear is one of the greatest gifts you can ever bestow upon someone. Fun fact that nobody in the community knows (and y'all will be the first to know, how lucky you are), I have several conditions, both mental and physical, that inhibit my daily ability to function properly. To name a few: anorexia, depression, suicidal thoughts, abusive guardians, GAD (Generalized Anxiety Disorder), and GSAD (Generalized Social Anxiety Disorder). These (and many more) issues plague my lifestyle, until it gets to the point where I am unable to leave my bed. I've spent days at a time lying in bed because I am too afraid to leave my "comfort zone", so to speak. Thankfully, I am lucky enough to have a girlfriend who is my best friend, a person who can always listen to my problems (and God knows I have a lot of them). There will be days when I have anxiety attack after anxiety attack worrying about various issues. I thank God every day that I've been blessed with someone who is willing to listen to my messed up life and everything that is wrong with it.

Bito, the best thing you can do is listen. As I just related, my life would be so much less than it is now if I didn't have someone to talk to. Obviously, your friend is going through a rough emotional patch right now. If you can spend some time listening to your friend and allowing them to open up to you regarding whether they should leave their religion, or stay in the current one, I can guarantee you that your friendship will grow exponentially. As long as you listen with an open heart and an open mind that is free from personal and religion bias, I promise that your friend will appreciate your effort.

Note: yo, Col_StaR. It's good to see you man. We all miss you.

Note 2: I'm sorry if I got a little carried away in my response. I see a controversial topic such as this, and my old Sr. Staff brain kicks in and I just can't help myself. If anyone has any questions at all, please feel free to respond and I'll try to help you understand my points further.

Holy damn

 

[Tenebrous]

Well, this has been an extremely interesting thread to read. I've spent the better part of an hour reading this and trying to decipher all of the arguments. I wasn't actually going to respond to this thread at all for fear of stepping on some peoples' toes, but in the end I could not resist. I apologize if at all during this response I offend anyone - that is not the intention whatsoever. I simply wish to present my perspective to everyone.

I'm not nearly as smart as either Mooclan or Tenebrous12321, I freely admit it. As a lowly English major from Trent University in Canada, I don't nearly have the formal schooling nor philosophical background that is necessary in order to really insert myself into this argument. However, as an innocent bystander (please don't shoot me), I'd like to mention a couple of points that I noticed in the discussion.

@FellowCanadian, Eh: Your arguments are generally very sound. Although that statement may have some personal bias to it as I am an admirer of both your forum exploits and your theological arguments, I'm still going to say it. Regarding your overall debating tactics, I believe that the key to religious debates in the 21st century is to explain yourself in a manner that any human being can both understand, and relate to. Before I have angry dissenters descend upon me and explain away as to why that is such a hypocritical statement, know this. When I state that it is important to avoid both literal and figurative language enjambment, I do not speak for my religion (Christianity). Yes, I admit that there are some Christian debaters who have it wrong. I cringe at the screaming evangelists that come to your door and shove materials in your face, begging you to join their church group for just one solitary Thursday night. To me, that's not the way Christianity should be portrayed.

The Bible says in Matthew 28:19-20, "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." Now obviously, I'm not refuting that what the Bible says regarding evangelizing and spreading faith is completely false. I went to Nova Scotia a couple years back for a missions trip, and happily took part in the very same activities - walking down the sun-lit beach and giving out gospel tracts and Vacation-Bible-School flyers to anyone who had ears to hear and eyes to view me.

What I'm trying to say is that people need to understand and come to terms with their faith themselves. I'm not going to be the one to tell someone, "you need to understand this and believe this because of X, Y, and Z." My personal belief (and this has changed since I came back from Nova Scotia), is that if someone wants to place their faith in an almighty deity and worship him as the son of God, or any other form of God, so be it. I will lovingly support them with every fiber of my being, because in the end: it's about loving other people, not vindicating why your belief is better than someone else's because of A, B, and C points. If you doubt the authenticity of this view, the Bible clearly asks us to love our neighbours as ourselves, as found in Mark's re-telling of the Ten Commandments. Mark 12:31 says,"The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

Overall, good showing dude. I'm impressed with your arguments and the way you portrayed them. Bravo to you. By the way, I sent you a PM regarding some old stuff I wanted to talk to you about. You should read it.

@Tenebrous: For you, I have a few other remarks. I'm sorry that they won't be as positive as my comments for Moo, but I'll try to be as unbiased as possible. I am a Christian, so please know that I don't wish to impose any false sense of superiority on you.

You use a lot of big words that I had to Google quite a few times. Epistemology? Axiomatically? These are just two examples. As I went into in detail above in my comments for Moo, in the 21st century you need to appeal to every audience when formulating your argument - especially in a setting such as this. The MCGamer forums is a place where children go to have fun and hang out with their friends. If a thirteen year old kid came across this thread and tried to make sense of the banter between you and Moo, the kid likely wouldn't get very far. Heck, I'm an 18 year old guy who goes to a well-respected university in one of the most advanced and politically stable countries in the world, and on top of that: I'm an English major. I write for an education. As someone who has a fairly sizable command of the English language, I found it somewhat humorous that I had trouble deciphering your argument in some instances. My advice for next time is to try and get your points across without a) using flowery language and large words that only a select few can understand, and b) insulting your opponent in a roundabout manner, a method I noticed you employed several times over the course of your responses. Obviously, you are under no obligation to heed any of my suggestions. I'm simply speaking from what I saw as an objective third party individual that viewed the argument from an outside point of view.

In terms of your overall performance, I'm impressed with you as well. Just like Moo, you put forth some good points, and I applaud your overall argument. It was extremely well-formulated and you had the sources to back them up. While the sources were not always reliable, they were sources nonetheless. For that, I applaud you.

Now, to turn to what the original poster of the thread stated, I've got this response for you. Ultimately, it all comes down to what is right for you. BitoBain, my advice to you is to simply be his/her friend. The greatest thing you can do for someone is to listen. as someone who is speaking from personal experience, I can say with confidence that a listening ear is one of the greatest gifts you can ever bestow upon someone. Fun fact that nobody in the community knows (and y'all will be the first to know, how lucky you are), I have several conditions, both mental and physical, that inhibit my daily ability to function properly. To name a few: anorexia, depression, suicidal thoughts, abusive guardians, GAD (Generalized Anxiety Disorder), and GSAD (Generalized Social Anxiety Disorder). These (and many more) issues plague my lifestyle, until it gets to the point where I am unable to leave my bed. I've spent days at a time lying in bed because I am too afraid to leave my "comfort zone", so to speak. Thankfully, I am lucky enough to have a girlfriend who is my best friend, a person who can always listen to my problems (and God knows I have a lot of them). There will be days when I have anxiety attack after anxiety attack worrying about various issues. I thank God every day that I've been blessed with someone who is willing to listen to my messed up life and everything that is wrong with it.

Bito, the best thing you can do is listen. As I just related, my life would be so much less than it is now if I didn't have someone to talk to. Obviously, your friend is going through a rough emotional patch right now. If you can spend some time listening to your friend and allowing them to open up to you regarding whether they should leave their religion, or stay in the current one, I can guarantee you that your friendship will grow exponentially. As long as you listen with an open heart and an open mind that is free from personal and religion bias, I promise that your friend will appreciate your effort.

Note: yo, Col_StaR. It's good to see you man. We all miss you.

Note 2: I'm sorry if I got a little carried away in my response. I see a controversial topic such as this, and my old Sr. Staff brain kicks in and I just can't help myself. If anyone has any questions at all, please feel free to respond and I'll try to help you understand my points further.

Thank you