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MCSG will suffer the same fate without changes

Tiszo

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Very long post; staff if you care about the servers future please read to the end, TLDR at the bottom

Even though MCSG is having a revival, the same painful fate of a server with tons of potential will die off if changes are not made.

The 2 elephants in the room are cheaters and teamers. Let me elaborate on WHY people play MCSG in the first place

People play this game mode because it is competitive, people play this game with the intention of improving their skills and winning games. While a small subset of the community may of cared nothing about winning games and improving, the vast majority and the most dedication players did.
I remember when the leaderboards reset many years ago tons of very skilled players were all grinding their asses off to rank one. This was why MCSG attracted these players, it was competitive. No one who plays Minecraft casually in an SMP rages when someone designs a better house than they do, because it isn’t competitive. To sum it up -The back bone of MCSG is its competitive aspect. Hackers and cheaters completely undermine the integrity of the premise of MCSG drawing factor - it’s competitiveness
“muh toxicity” isn’t what killed the server, even when the player base was at a much younger age people saying ez and rekt were not the reasons for the decline on MCSG, however I remember the staff focused so much on these issues handing out long bans meanwhile if the anticheat catches you cheating you get
wait for it
KICKED
The toxicity issue while wasn’t a pull factor to mcsg, had very little to due with its decline relative to the much more pushing factors like cheaters and teams

Cheaters are one of the best way to lose competitiveness in a game mode. It completely undermines one of the core aspects of having a competitively based game mode of people wanting to improve. Why would you want to go through the grind of practicing your PvP skills on badlion and watching hours of JustaHotDog’s chest routes when you are constantly killed by either blatant hackers, or closet cheaters. The hacking issue is a vicious cycle in Minecraft. People see other people hacking and having an advantage while not having to improve any while not being punished at all. Then these players who never had any intention of cheating for an advantage install a client from the plethora of bypassing clients of mcsg anti cheat (which is an absolute abomination) not to troll other players- but to give them selves a fair playing field. When tons of players were using a client, it is the logical thing that people download one themselves. I mean just look at the clan scene, tons of people closet cheated which resulted in more people installing cheats just to keep up with them- if you can’t beat them, join them. As this spirals the hacking problem out of control, it completely undermines the competitive aspect which is the sole reason people get invested into the game mode.
The more casual players begin to realize that this absolute joke of a game mode has no competitive aspect to it and say - bunnies it let me install a client why not it will be fun. This furthers the cycle of cheaters. Even the competitive players now think, all these skillless Randy’s who are horrid at the game can kill me with kill aura, it’s only fair that I atleast get a ghost client to compensate, I mean they are completely unpunished it will be already if I just get a little aim assist reach and velocity etc. This cycle eventually continues until there is an overboard of cheaters, and the server dies as it is deemed 100% uncompetitive and people will flock to different games, overwatch, cs, fortnite, etc
Think of this way, you were a professional weightlifter and 60% of the competition used steroids, you are at a msssive disadvantage, you either use steroids and become the cheater just to keep up, or it becomes so uncompetitive and dominated not by how good you are but what you do to gain an advantage; you quit from the sheer lack of competitiveness
This is the same premise that killed, and will kill MCSG again if nothing is done

as a mini TLDR: hackers completely destroy the competitive aspect of the game which is is biggest pulling factor to MCSG by a mile, by undermining the aspects that draw people to the game


Teaming
Teaming is yet another aspect of MCSG that kills the inherent competitiveness of the aspect that pulls people towards it, why would you grind to be better when you can just get with 2 other friends and learn a chest route; no matter how good a solo player is, they will almost inevitably beat them if they just wait til DM. Teaming also leads players to cheat, when a solo player sees a team they think - wow a team of three that is literally so unfair, to equalize it’s only fair that I cheat to get an advantage to neutralize it. I can’t exactly blame them, the Good that MCSG allows like 5 teams is absolutely ridiculous, that the server admins could even consider that competitive for the remaining players. Solo SG isn’t a viable option, people do not like change, it is human nature to resist it. In the current state of MCSG it is not viable to split the player base even if more migrated to solo SG, there are so many options that offer themselves as more competitive experiences such as other games. It is similar to when a political party splits there voters between 2 candidates and expects to win; they never will. To solve this problem MCSG must cater to all players while still remaining competitive. I personally think even teams of 2 lower the integrity of an a “competitive” game mode as it provides an unfair advantage to a few players while it is completely out of control of the non teamed players. Alliances should be the only form of an option with another player. This would consist of simply ignoring each other while not helping at all. This would alleviate the absolute horse Good feeling a player has when they get skilllessly 1v2ed. Teaming inherently Good for a “competitive game mode” as it offers advantages to others while adding an even greater disadvantage for others. Alliances would solve this problem, this way players could still participate in discord calls and enjoy the game with friends, however not completely ruining the expience of the other players. MCSG has generally had democratic views letting players vote for what they want.
I think it would be a great idea to vote for 2 team max, alliances or no teams at all.
However the concept of 3+ teams is absofuckingridiculous as it is borderline impossible to beat without camping a choke point all game which is boring and unenjoyable for both parties. If MCSG allows the current maximum number of teams, all competitiveness will be killed as leaderboards will be dominated by 3+ teaming win traders, making all solo players at an advantage so big it won’t be possible to compete with no matter how good your individual skill is, completely killing the competitive aspect of mcsg



With these 2 rants explained, what can we conclude from both of these aspects that completely kill competitive aspect of a game?

When the game is decided before the game even starts

When you have a hacker or a team of 4 in your game, the fate of the game is already decided 98% of the time. This is the pinnacle of uncompetitiveness; when the fate of the game is already decided with no control of it being in the player’s control. Whether it be teams or hackers, the outcome of uncompetitiveness is the same, this turns MCSG from a game of skill, to a game of complete RNG which is UNCOMPETITIVE.
The winning factor goes from how good you are at pvp, your gamesense, your knowledge of chest routes, to how few hackers you have in your game and how few teams you have in your game. This completely obliterates the competitive aspect of the game by taking the chance of victory from the players hands, and putting it into factors they have absolutely 0 control over.
TLDR: hackers and teams turn MCSG into a game mode of RNG instead of skill as the games outcome is already decided a lot by how many hackers and teamers are present in the lobby, this kills competitiveness, the main driving factor to what brings people to MCSG, if this issue is not fixed and competitiveness is not revived; MCSG will suffer the same exact death it did years ago.
 
Last edited:

Kezzer

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Gonna sum up my response to this quickly

Competition is good for the servers we all agree on that. It's what keeps people coming back. Having a negative and toxic environment however makes people hate the environment so we have to make sure that we find the right balance between healthy competitiveness and being a toxic jerk.

The anticheat currently only kicks you simply because it's under development still. It's still occasionally making mistakes due to lag or getting caught on slabs due to the anticheat needing a bit of fine tuning. In the future I'm sure that there will be more severe punishments but for now it's just a kick which is a hell of a lot better than just ignoring it.

Cheaters are an issue and it's why we have staff and an anticheat. Both are still in development (more staff and a more accurate anticheat). Report them using /report and staff will watch them. If you have a bit of spare time help record them and then submit it to the staff so action can be taken.

Teaming is an area where we can't please everyone. So many people complain about it when they play solo but don't want to play solo sg. Funny how the same players don't see it as an issue when they want to play with their friends. In the future there's definitely room for more competitive modes that focus on solo gameplay but we're currently in beta. Things will change but it takes time. It's not as simple as turning on the server and saying things are all ok.
 

Kraken

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I'll chime in here, not necessarily to defend how we've done things in the past, more-so to explain why it was done that way. Personally I can go either way, but this discussion (teaming) has been a hot topic since MCSG's birth in 2012.
I can understand your frustration and reasoning. A lot of competitive aspects of the game are removed when you face a large team, and some skill goes out the window. It allows players to 'cheese' the game, by (as you said) "why would I need to get good when I can get 5 of my friends to run a route and bring me gear. When MCSG first came around, it was more survivalgames than it was survivalgames. This has changed recently, with the playerbase shifting to a more competitive view on the game, focucssing more on PVP than survival.
One of the main points of the games that this community is inspired by (the Hunger Games) is that the contestants can team with as many of the others as they wish, but in the end there can only be one winner. You must kill your team mates in the end, so the feeling of fickle trust when you team with another player can be exciting. "This guy is shifty, he's for sure going to try kill me if I turn my back."

Another reason teaming has never been punishable in the past is that it can be very difficult to prove at times. There is a fine line between not attacking someone because I don't think I can win, and intentionally working with them to win, and without knowing their intentions, I know for a fact we're going to have A LOT of gray-area bans. If we were to make it punishable, it would likely require a lot of consistent, game-to-game blatant teaming to warrant any kind of punishment.
So where does this take us? Our current game mode is very casual. Aside from the leaderboards, there isn't any competitive incentive (though for some that is enough), however a competitive gamemode is in the works that will accommodate players who want to focus entirely on the competitive aspect of the survival games. I don't have all the details now, and this is not to be taken as gospel as Chad himself will give details on competitive play, but I imagine if there was to be a restriction on teaming it would be there, probably restricted to solos.
This is a big addition to the servers though, and will take some time to implement. We're still in beta, sorting out the core casual server/gamemode for now.

As for your other point, I can't speak much for the anti-cheat but what I will say is that it's still under heavy development. When you don't have access to all of the game that you're making the anti-cheat for, you are somewhat limited on what you can do. I imagine the reason it currently kicks you is that it can be frustrating to have your case entirely decided on by a computer. Imagine if you were false-flagged by the anticheat and banned. If you asked to see the proof, there wouldn't be any. Having an actual person gather evcidence against a player, and punishing them accordingly makes for a better player experience, as they can talk to an actual person, and see the evidence against them, enabling them to dispute. The anti-cheat kicking them from the match if it flags them as potentially cheating (and then notifying all staff that are online) at least gets them out of the match they're in, saving 23 players from the frustration. Again, this system is still being worked on heavily, and will see vast improvements moving forward.

We don't want to be stuck in old ways, with gaming in general evolving all the time, and we must evolve with it to stay on top of things. I agree with you that teaming removes some (sometimes all) of the competitive aspects to the games, and restricting it will appeal to the larger playerbase. I ask that you hold out for now, keep playing and helping us test and improve the system we have while the competitive mode is rolled out. Then we can look at restricting teaming in a competitive environment, while allowing people to casually play with friends in a non-competitive mode. You're clearly passionate about MCSG (why else would you take so much time to give us your feedback?), which we encourage, and I think you'll really like the changes we have in mind. Have a little patience and a pinch of faith, we have a lot of new things planned for the future.
 

Tiszo

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I'll chime in here, not necessarily to defend how we've done things in the past, more-so to explain why it was done that way. Personally I can go either way, but this discussion (teaming) has been a hot topic since MCSG's birth in 2012.
I can understand your frustration and reasoning. A lot of competitive aspects of the game are removed when you face a large team, and some skill goes out the window. It allows players to 'cheese' the game, by (as you said) "why would I need to get good when I can get 5 of my friends to run a route and bring me gear. When MCSG first came around, it was more survivalgames than it was survivalgames. This has changed recently, with the playerbase shifting to a more competitive view on the game, focucssing more on PVP than survival.
One of the main points of the games that this community is inspired by (the Hunger Games) is that the contestants can team with as many of the others as they wish, but in the end there can only be one winner. You must kill your team mates in the end, so the feeling of fickle trust when you team with another player can be exciting. "This guy is shifty, he's for sure going to try kill me if I turn my back."

Another reason teaming has never been punishable in the past is that it can be very difficult to prove at times. There is a fine line between not attacking someone because I don't think I can win, and intentionally working with them to win, and without knowing their intentions, I know for a fact we're going to have A LOT of gray-area bans. If we were to make it punishable, it would likely require a lot of consistent, game-to-game blatant teaming to warrant any kind of punishment.
So where does this take us? Our current game mode is very casual. Aside from the leaderboards, there isn't any competitive incentive (though for some that is enough), however a competitive gamemode is in the works that will accommodate players who want to focus entirely on the competitive aspect of the survival games. I don't have all the details now, and this is not to be taken as gospel as Chad himself will give details on competitive play, but I imagine if there was to be a restriction on teaming it would be there, probably restricted to solos.
This is a big addition to the servers though, and will take some time to implement. We're still in beta, sorting out the core casual server/gamemode for now.

As for your other point, I can't speak much for the anti-cheat but what I will say is that it's still under heavy development. When you don't have access to all of the game that you're making the anti-cheat for, you are somewhat limited on what you can do. I imagine the reason it currently kicks you is that it can be frustrating to have your case entirely decided on by a computer. Imagine if you were false-flagged by the anticheat and banned. If you asked to see the proof, there wouldn't be any. Having an actual person gather evcidence against a player, and punishing them accordingly makes for a better player experience, as they can talk to an actual person, and see the evidence against them, enabling them to dispute. The anti-cheat kicking them from the match if it flags them as potentially cheating (and then notifying all staff that are online) at least gets them out of the match they're in, saving 23 players from the frustration. Again, this system is still being worked on heavily, and will see vast improvements moving forward.

We don't want to be stuck in old ways, with gaming in general evolving all the time, and we must evolve with it to stay on top of things. I agree with you that teaming removes some (sometimes all) of the competitive aspects to the games, and restricting it will appeal to the larger playerbase. I ask that you hold out for now, keep playing and helping us test and improve the system we have while the competitive mode is rolled out. Then we can look at restricting teaming in a competitive environment, while allowing people to casually play with friends in a non-competitive mode. You're clearly passionate about MCSG (why else would you take so much time to give us your feedback?), which we encourage, and I think you'll really like the changes we have in mind. Have a little patience and a pinch of faith, we have a lot of new things planned for the future.
I think both ends of the community, the completely casual and the hyper competitive need to make sacrifices to unite into one whole gamemode, I feel that it is too late and the community has lost way too many players to be able to comfortably make the decision of dividing SG into a casual team included gamemode as well as completely solo SG. There simply arent going to be enough players, minecraft is far from its peak of its popularity, one gamemode will just eventually dominate as people will be impatient and want a quick game. This is already shown in a game like overwatch where after role Qs implantation, players who would of never played a different role besides damage suddenly start consciously choosing other roles for the only sake of waiting less time for a game. As damage compared to tank was a much shorter wait time. The same thing will slowly happen until one mode completely dominates the other, im sure many people actually most would prefer to play solo sg, just the problem is literally no one else plays it and its dead. Thats why for enough players both sides of the team v solo need to compensate. Instead of completely splitting the modes to appease both sides. Alliances would allow players to stay in the same game with their friends and discord call etc. I honestly dont care whatsoever and im sure my sentiment would be shared by others. If they shared gear or whatever it literally doesnt matter i just dont want to be chased down by 3 people rod spamming each other to my inevitable death to no matter how good i am, it literally doesnt matter. No matter how good i am they will win simply because of numbers. This also wouldnt split the moderation force into 2 separate games to moderate and the grey area would be ignored; they are allowed to do literally whatever they want as long as they dont actively enforce an x>1 on a player who chose to solo. This would be very easy to see and catch and would result in such a better game play experience i cant even put into words. This would still technically be an advantage to people with alliances as they would be able to get better gear given their friend had it, and they would of that less many people trying to kill them, this still allows for the casual environment of the game. With one minor difference that makes a world of change. SOLO PLAYERS DONT HAVE THEIR ENTIRE GAME CRAPPED ON MY TEAMS NUMBER ABUSING THEM. It allows for casual players to still enjoy without the oppressing factor, and solo players while still at a slight disadvantage will have an experience so changing, gameplay as a solo player wouldnt feel oppressing as you get chased down by a giant team. Many times there isnt a trust aspect in survival games anymore, its players in a discord call who are friends and dont ever betray each other. This completely takes any risk whatsoever out of teaming. From a competitive aspect THERE IS ZERO REASON NOT TO TEAM. Immense benefits; no consequences assuming he is your friend (98% of the time teamers are). Alliances would be easy bans for staff as it would ignore grey area bans like you mentioned, still allow casual and pro team players to have fun with their friends, and now solo players will be much less disadvantaged and not feel ridiculously oppressed by a team. The solo player will feel in control again and the RNG aspect like i mentioned will be nearly gone. It is honestly pathetic when i see players in these 3 teams when you split them who refuse to take a 1v1 if there teammate is not 2 blocks away from them. And there is no pressure for them to fight, they have all the options while you have none, which is completely unfair and not competitive at all. Even for players who play casually, how is it even remotely fair that they should never be allowed to die in the game simply because they have a teammate who exists? It shouldnt but in current they can just rod spam away or run around building forever until their teammate takes a different route or catches up to him and then its back at a 1v2 or how ever many it is. Like i said 0 disadvantages for teaming while huge advantages. Not competitive at all. The leaderboard in my opinion is more than enough. When talks of of a leaderboard came into play, the player base SKY ROCKETED. A leaderboard while sounding simple, is a giant pushing factor for players to grind their ass off to be on it.



If i recall correctly MCSG's anticheat has never banned or done more than a kick in its entire history. It is too late in its current state to expect it to go from being unable to kick someone with blatant kill aura and anti kb, to expect it to detect very advanced clients like vape, etc. It is simply too far gone and will never be plausible from its current state that it will detect miniscule aim assist if it cant even detect full on kill aura. Ive been out of the loop for a long time now, but from watching some itstene videos there seems to be many great anticheats that are available for a relatively cheap price (250ish) that do an impeccable job of detecting closet cheats. I know MCSG wants to take pride in owning and developing their own and unique anticheat that they deem meets their standard; but honestly it is WAY to late for that. The subtleness of modern day clients is so ridiculously hard to detect that it will be borderline impossible for the current anticheat to do anything. MCSG needs to purchase an already effective anti cheat and then add its own tweaks and individual checks to it. Essentially combining the 2 anti cheats into one. This would be so much better than attempting to start from a very low level of cheat detection and build your self up when there are already so many great anticheats avaliable for purchase on mcmarket. MCSG needs to forget their pride and simply accept they have failed on the anticheat aspect to the server, suck it up and use someone else's work and add their own spin onto it. None of the players care what anticheat is used, they just dont want to be shat on like hackers like it was during the death of mcsg a few years ago. I doubt any devs will actually read this or absorb it but there are many good anti cheats on mc-market that would be a good base to start from, verus, antigaming chair etc. that for a few hundred could save the devs countless time, and make the anti cheat great from the combination of the already existing checks along with the ones they have already made.
 

Georgey

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#PhoneOCE also strongly dislikes teaming. You should apply to join on our thread!
 

Lebron12

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It is simply too far gone and will never be plausible from its current state that it will detect miniscule aim assist if it cant even detect full on kill aura. Ive been out of the loop for a long time now, but from watching some itstene videos there seems to be many great anticheats that are available for a relatively cheap price (250ish) that do an impeccable job of detecting closet cheats. I know MCSG wants to take pride in owning and developing their own and unique anticheat that they deem meets their standard; but honestly it is WAY to late for that.
Pretty much everyone who plays will agree with this. The AC in the past did nothing and left a LOT of people false banned for an extended period of time before they were finally told the system was in the wrong, and with the current AC being based on No Cheat Plus, I just can't see a world it functions properly.
 

VenomBB

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heretic this is treason to speak before the council! SMITE THE. jk uh sure :)
 

Laborers

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MCSG is a place for everybody to not only play, but meet new people. It's been like this since 2012 and Solo SG is offered for a reason. If you disagree with the administration and don't find joy playing, then forget about it. You win some, you lose some.

Good luck,

Roman
 

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