Community Discussion: What should the policy be for deleting evidence?

[landowicked]

i see it mentioned here multiple times, but im going to use the example of CScoop, he is a very old mcsg player like i am, and to see him get permabanned for something so little in comparison. now to be fair the hacker "murderer" as you claimed gets banned for 7 days the first time where as the person who destroyed the evidence the "friend" gets permabanned the first time. during my time as a moderator i had a user with over 200,000 subscribers submit a hacker video to me on their main channel, they wanted to remove it or put it on locked and i told him they couldnt, he was a bit annoyed but it wasnt a huge deal to him cause it was unlisted. but it is something to think about. cscoop didnt have that many subscribers but he had a reasonable growing channel, and he didnt want it clogging up his videos, in my opinion there needs to be a way for certain people to ask mods to download and re-submit the videos if they dont want it on their channel anymore. just my opinion

 

[mr_pendle]

Okay here is my pitch. I'm tired so I'll keep it short, but I do believe this should be a bannable offense. However, every single other offense on the MCGamer network (that doesn't break federal law) gives you a second chance.
.

No it doesn't.
I got perm banned, first offense with no warning for saying "Or you could demote Dave"
As far as I'm aware that's not a illegal but yeah, there you go...

 

[Cubes]

The tough thing about the situation is that the ordeal does not end once the player is banned. Lots of people dispute their bans. Everyone is entitled to see the evidence for their ban. It's just common sense. However, when we go to fetch their evidence for them, and there's absolutely nothing there anymore, there's nothing to suggest that they broke the rules. Therefore, we have no solid reason to tell them that they should be banned, as we technically can't.

Due to this, we must unban them. Then we look at the person who deleted it. It is because of their decision that another convicted player can come back to the network. We are always aware of the fact that they could still re-upload the video. Therefore, we at least try to contact them about it.

There have been arguments that failure to read the TOS is a valuable excuse for getting unbanned. The major thing to understand is that when logging in, you agree to those, and you need to understand how those affect you. It is not our job to hold your hand through the process. There needs to be a level of initiative. I'm sorry if that sounds a bit harsh, and I really don't mean it to be. It's just the fact of the matter that we can't let you off the hook for not knowing how we work, especially when everything that you need to know is very retrievable information.

 

[Sean]

Okay I finally got around to posting my thoughts on this. I don't think it will be as long as first intended.

Lets start off by saying the yes this 100% should be a bannable offence. By removing evidence you are allowing other users (hackers) to roam free which we already have an epidemic of. But it should not be a perm ban that is crazy. First of all people might now read the rules and this seems like a pretty harsh punishment. While yes I know if you play on MCSG you agree to the terms and conditions but the truth is that probably 10% of users who have logged onto the system have actually read them.

Also a lot of people might have active YouTube channels and for someone that is trying to keep track of videos, old out dated hacker videos can clog this up.

Also there is the case that YouTube can take down the video or sites like Imgur can remove the image. Why should a user be punished for the actions of another.

Now with that clear I would like to put forward a solution/ recommendations /new policy that I would see be effective.

The main backbone of this new policy would be as follows. The user who submits the report and deletes the evidence gets banned for the amount of time the user who was originally banned for.

Example A.

• [User 1] submits a report abuse of a hacker. The evidence is valid and [The hacker] gets banned for 1 week as it was there 1st offence. 2 months later [User 1] decides to clean out his YouTube and deletes the video. While at the same time [The hacker] decides too try and clean his record so he can apply for mod. So he makes a ban dispute. The Sr staff review the ban dispute and notice the evidence is deleted. [The hacker] gets a clean history and [User 1] is banned for a week.

Example B.

• [User 1] submits a report abuse of a hacker. The evidence is valid and [The hacker] gets perm banned as it was his second offence. 2 months later [User 1] decides to clean out his YouTube and deletes the video. While at the same time [The hacker] decides to make a ban dispute. The Sr staff review the ban dispute and notice the evidence is deleted. [The hacker] gets unbanned and [User 1] is perm banned.

The second soloution (By Cscoop ) Is that we operate the rule for deleting evidence the same as hacking which would be as follows.

• • [First offence] 1 week ban.
  • [Second offence] Perm ban.

Do you see where I am coming from. Now as well as this rule change I have some more recommendations.

1. Add a rule book to the hub so users can be more aware of the rules.
2. A new report abuse template as follows.

In-Game-Name [Of rule breaker]:
Reason:
Proof:
Key times on video [Optional]:
Time and date [Optional]:
Gametype:

I {Your name} agree to all the rules and regulations of MCGamer and understand that if I purposely remove/ delete evidence I risk being removed from MCGamer.

3. Before a user is banned from the network they should be first contacted and given a time to explain there situation/ re-upload the evidence.

I hope you (The administration team) take this into consideration and I would love to hear some feedback on my proposed solution.

Wow that felt like I was trying to sell a product on Dragons Den or something xD

 

[Chris]

The tough thing about the situation is that the ordeal does not end once the player is banned. Lots of people dispute their bans. Everyone is entitled to see the evidence for their ban. It's just common sense. However, when we go to fetch their evidence for them, and there's absolutely nothing there anymore, there's nothing to suggest that they broke the rules. Therefore, we have no solid reason to tell them that they should be banned, as we technically can't.

Due to this, we must unban them. Then we look at the person who deleted it. It is because of their decision that another convicted player can come back to the network. We are always aware of the fact that they could still re-upload the video. Therefore, we at least try to contact them about it.

There have been arguments that failure to read the TOS is a valuable excuse for getting unbanned. The major thing to understand is that when logging in, you agree to those, and you need to understand how those affect you. It is not our job to hold your hand through the process. There needs to be a level of initiative. I'm sorry if that sounds a bit harsh, and I really don't mean it to be. It's just the fact of the matter that we can't let you off the hook for not knowing how we work, especially when everything that you need to know is very retrievable information.

You see, I agree that you can't let them off the hook, but the ban shouldn't be a permanent ban. They were trying to help out the community by getting a hacker banned in the first place. Another fact is that it should be required for a moderator to download said video due to the fact, outside being a staff member, the person should be able to do what they want with their channel. Before the cscoop incident, there wasn't a huge problem with this; however there is still nothing that says you can't delete the evidence or something along the lines of: "I [Player], agree to not deleting said evidence from my youtube channel. Doing so will result in a permanent ban." in the report abuse template. I understand it is in the rules to not delete the evidence, however this isn't clarified when you report a player.

 

[Ceroria]

No it doesn't.
I got perm banned, first offense with no warning for saying "Or you could demote Dave"
As far as I'm aware that's not a illegal but yeah, there you go...

I should have mentioned the other first offense perm ban is abusing the administration, which should be self explanatory.

The tough thing about the situation is that the ordeal does not end once the player is banned. Lots of people dispute their bans. Everyone is entitled to see the evidence for their ban. It's just common sense. However, when we go to fetch their evidence for them, and there's absolutely nothing there anymore, there's nothing to suggest that they broke the rules. Therefore, we have no solid reason to tell them that they should be banned, as we technically can't.

Due to this, we must unban them. Then we look at the person who deleted it. It is because of their decision that another convicted player can come back to the network. We are always aware of the fact that they could still re-upload the video. Therefore, we at least try to contact them about it.

There have been arguments that failure to read the TOS is a valuable excuse for getting unbanned. The major thing to understand is that when logging in, you agree to those, and you need to understand how those affect you. It is not our job to hold your hand through the process. There needs to be a level of initiative. I'm sorry if that sounds a bit harsh, and I really don't mean it to be. It's just the fact of the matter that we can't let you off the hook for not knowing how we work, especially when everything that you need to know is very retrievable information.

The only thing is what if they were going to be unbanned anyway, what if they have a one day ban and disputed it? They were to be unbanned tomorrow and now you're permanently banned.

I understand your reasoning because it really does make it hard on staff to deal with their dispute, I have firsthand experience on that matter but I just don't know if it's fair for it to be a permanent ban on the first offense.

I just don't think it's fair that deleting evidence of somebody with a temporary ban will result in a permanent ban for you. Not to start an argument, just pointing out my own opinion c:

 

[smashmaster]

My opinion on the matter is if you did not do it on purpose and do not have the file anymore it should be a week ban not a perm ban

 

[mr_pendle]

I should have mentioned the other first offense perm ban is abusing the administration, which should be self explanatory.

I would hardly call that abuse...
This is kinda going off topic, however saying "or you could demote dave?" is the same as ddosing someone...

ye makes sense yo

 

[I_love_desk]

This post has been made plenty of times already, but I'll say it again anyway:

How is it possible that we give people who deliberately break the rules and ruin the game for others a second chance, but don't give a second chance to those who are trying to help and make an honest mistake?

The tough thing about the situation is that the ordeal does not end once the player is banned. Lots of people dispute their bans. Everyone is entitled to see the evidence for their ban. It's just common sense. However, when we go to fetch their evidence for them, and there's absolutely nothing there anymore, there's nothing to suggest that they broke the rules. Therefore, we have no solid reason to tell them that they should be banned, as we technically can't.

Due to this, we must unban them. Then we look at the person who deleted it. It is because of their decision that another convicted player can come back to the network. We are always aware of the fact that they could still re-upload the video. Therefore, we at least try to contact them about it.
.

Everyone understands that it is a problem for the server and for the staff when evidence is deleted. However, it is much more of a problem that people download hacked clients and cheat. That is the whole reason why the reporting system exists.

 

[Ceroria]

I would hardly call that abuse...
This is kinda going off topic, however saying "or you could demote dave?" is the same as ddosing someone...

ye makes sense yo

If you'd like to continue it in a PM, I'd be happy to, but if I were Dave I wouldn't be very excited to see that somebody said that. Also, Dave has a lot of influence on the community, and it's much easier to be punished for saying something negative towards an administrator than it is just a regular player.

 

[I_love_desk]

If you'd like to continue it in a PM, I'd be happy to, but if I were Dave I wouldn't be very excited to see that somebody said that. Also, Dave has a lot of influence on the community, and it's much easier to be punished for saying something negative towards an administrator than it is just a regular player.

Why should we differentiate between staff and regular players? Since this thread keeps referring to real life examples, how about: It's just as bad to insult some random guy on the street as it is to insult a celebrity. Someone being influential doesn't make their feelings more important.

also I always seem to get in "discussions" with you, but you're still cool so no hard feelings

 

[Ceroria]

Why should we differentiate between staff and regular players? Since this thread keeps referring to real life examples, how about: It's just as bad to insult some random guy on the street as it is to insult a celebrity. Someone being influential doesn't make their feelings more important.

also I always seem to get in "discussions" with you, but you're still cool so no hard feelings

Well the only problem is that a celebrity has more status and can do "worse" to you, i.e making you famous for "that guy" that insulted them. Yes, it's equally bad to insult anybody, but the people with more "power" can do more about it. Insulting the administration has always been a serious offense because we should be respectful towards the higher ups here, they do a lot to keep the servers running and people who insult their work ignorantly or on purpose will be dealt with. The staff here takes way more heat than they deserve compared to how staff are treated on other servers.

Okay, back on topic c: