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Community Feedback: The Question of Teaming, Team Limits, and Enforcement

Should There Be a Team Limit on MCSG? If So, How Large Should a Team Be?

  • Teams should be banned completely. There should only be solo players.

    Votes: 2 2.6%
  • Teams should be limited to two (2) players at most.

    Votes: 7 9.1%
  • Teams should be limited to three (3) players at most.

    Votes: 18 23.4%
  • Teams should be limited to four (4) players at most.

    Votes: 6 7.8%
  • Teams should be limited to five (5) players at most.

    Votes: 1 1.3%
  • There should be no limit or ban on Teams. Teams should be as large as they want.

    Votes: 43 55.8%

  • Total voters
    77

Col_StaR

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We want community opinions on Teaming to help guide future policy decisions.
A long-term solution is in the works with the Developers.
There are also plenty of reasons why the staff has hesitated making a rule against Teaming thus far.
There are questions at the very end that we'd appreciate a response to so that we can hear your opinions.

Hello folks!

One of the hot topics that has surrounded MCSG since forever is the question of Teaming and whether it should be allowed, limited, or banned outright. There have always been very strong opinions for every side with a variety of valid rationale for each side. To make matters worse, any attempts to actually enforce a limit on Teaming would be incredibly difficult to enforce consistently, effectively, or fairly at any scale, which is one of the reasons why the staff has avoided taking any hard stances against it. This is a hot topic with no right or easy answers.

But as part of our commitment to improving our players' experience with our gamemodes, we would like to use this as an opportunity to explore the community's opinions and gather feedback to better inform the leadership team's decisions on this topic moving forward.

This is a prickly situation that is sure to be met with some passionate arguments, but I hope we can keep this civil and give enough rational arguments that can better enhance our decision-making process when we do decide to take a stand on this matter. We can't guarantee that we will implement everything the way you want it to be to the letter, but we at least want to see if there is a middle-ground that we can reach to improve things in the short-term.

The Long Term Solution: an MCSG Queue System
In the long term, the Teaming question will already be solved. With a few additional months of development, Chad and the Devs plan to implement an MCSG Queue System that is split between Casual and Competitive gamemodes. Emulating other successful popular games on the market today, this effective system will allow us to deliver the best of both worlds: a party-allowed queue for casual players who want to Team with their friends, and a No-Teaming randomized queue for competitive players to play against each other while only relying on their own solo abilities. We even hope to implement some level of skill-based matchmaking in a future version as well.
This queue system is one of our most innovative and exciting new features, and it has become a core development goal for the Development Team.

But while we will have a solution in the long term, we're here to talk about what we want to do in the short term. We are currently exploring options that would make people happy right now now while development continues on that future queue system.

The Teaming Dilemma
Everyone Teams for a reason, and everyone hates Teams for a different reason. The problem is that we often see and hear the same reasons and opinions coming from the same people; the only difference is what side of the Team they are on.

So this is the Teaming Dilemma:
Everyone likes to Team and win,
but No One likes to get Teamed on and lose
.

The problem for us is balancing these two desires and outcomes in the same gamemode (a note about Solo SG below). If we ban Teaming, everyone who likes to Team will be upset. But if we allow for unrestricted Teaming, everyone who dislikes Teams will be upset. And often times, we hear both sides of the complaining from the same people, so any attempts at implementing any limits was previously seen as a lose-lose situation.

Why Would a Limit or Ban Be So Hard?
There are plenty of reasons why we haven't implemented a limit before, but here are the top arguments I see made. Reason #3 is my biggest concern.

- Reason #1: People really like to Team with their Friends.
Look, I really can't emphasize more how much Teaming is enjoyed by both casual and clan competitive players. People like to play with their friends, and something about the dynamic and semi-random nature of battle royale games only encourages players to cooperate in order to overcome weaker individual players. This aspect of the game is a big draw for people, and the rush of gratification that comes with an easy kill is intoxicating to many. Putting a limit or ban on teaming will be seen as us attempting to put a damper on people having fun with our game, and that drives people to be very hostile towards us as a staff and community, and may even result in many players leaving over this policy.

Heck, if we had a policy that banned Teams, then we would have effectively disbanded our entire Clan Battle community. If no one can Team, there's no point in having a clan and there's no way for clans to face off against each other. We'd be trading the pro-Teaming playerbase for the anti-Teaming playerbase, and I don't want to have a policy that resorts to such extremes.

- Reason #2: It's in the Books.
This is perhaps the oldest argument being made in Teaming's defense. It's an application of the cummulative property: MCSG is based on the Hunger Games, the Hunger Games had Teaming, therefore MCSG should have Teaming. I don't necessarily think it's the strongest argument to make, but I did want to put it here for all of the Hunger Games purists out there.

- Reason #3: It's an Exciting In-Game Dynamic.
If you drop solo into a match of MCSG, and you run into another player, can you trust them? When they duck repeatedly to signal a truce, you still have to ask yourself, "can you really trust them?" This exciting dynamic of potentially forming tenuous teams in the middle of a game with an unknown player adds quite a bit to the drama and enjoyability of a game of MCSG. Heck, some of our previous players met friends and clan mates by complete accident because they met up in a match and made a good Team. By removing or limiting Teaming, we remove or diminish the likelihood of this happening at all, and thus removes an exciting social element from the game in exchange for a solo survival experience.

- Reason #4: Enforcement would be incredibly difficult to do efficiently.
As a Community Manager, I see enforcement of such a rule as my biggest issue with any Teaming policy.

The nature of Teaming is different from hacking, swearing, insulting, or exploiting in that it is an action that is almost entirely determined by context; the series of actions you take on their own are innocent, but put together in certain circumstances, and they suddenly become a punishable offense. It isn't an action that is obviously detectable by any system automated system, and it will require human intelligence to parse through. Because of this dependence on humans and the nature of Teaming in general, validating an instance of Teaming will be slow, plausible exceptions and false positives will occur with some frequency (if an attack occurs with a third party attacker, would that be considered Teaming?), and the sheer scale of Teaming due to its popularity will cause a massive backup of Teaming offenses to be handed out.

Furthermore, collecting evidence that are punish-worthy won't be an easy task either. Simply put: how can you come up with a foolproof way of collecting evidence and proving that a group of players are Teaming? A picture certainly wouldn't do, but what would a video need to contain in order to definitively show Teaming? If a player gets attacked by two players at once, is it Teaming or simply a third-party attack? If we get a video of two players going for the same chest, emptying its contents, and then running off, is that Teaming or two players racing to grab gear before retreating? If two players are running and following each other around the map, are they Teaming or simply one player being pursued by the other? If we simply limit Teams to 2, what is there to stop a pair from having a third player following far behind in order to plausibly deny being part of the Team? If there is a Team but one player dies before being able to kill anyone, should they still be punished for being a Team? If a player dies to a giant Team but they have no video to show that, won't they still be as upset- if not moreso- that the Teaming occured yet nothing could be done about it? How long must a video be in order to definitively prove Teaming? And at the end of the day, if our staff has to wade through 5 minute videos each time someone reports a Team, those are 5 minute that aren't spent pursuing more serious rule-breakers like hackers and insulting players. These are all considerations that we have to make on a policy such as this, and there are plenty of holes in any strict policies that we make on this matter.

In the absence of any effective way of identifying Teamers, any sort of limit or ban on Teaming will create great difficulty for the staff team in enforcing that rule. That is one of the reasons why we have always been apprehensive about making such a rule: no matter what we do, it will be an eternal struggle for our staff team.

- Reason #5: SoloSG Exists.
No, seriously, why doesn't anyone play it? It's the mode everyone clamors for, it's an immediate solution to the problem we have here, yet no one plays it or can tell me why they don't play it. It's caught in the circular logic of, "No one plays it because the servers are empty, and the servers are empty because no one plays it."

But even with those five reasons given, we are willing to explore changes in our current policy if we feel that such a policy would benefit the network more than it would hinder it. That is the main motivation behind this thread: we want to know what you all think is a fair response to this issue.

Community Feedback: What Do You Think is Fair?
Now we get to the community feedback of the thread, the part where you tell us what you think. In addition to the poll above, I would love to hear your in-depth opinions and ideas for what our policy should be towards Teaming and why.

For the sake of making the responses easy to read, these are the questions I'd like you guys to directly answer to the best of your abilities. Feel free to copy and paste them into your response if that helps you format your thoughts.
  • Should Teaming be allowed on MCSG? If so, what is the maximum number of players allowed to Team in a game?
  • What would you consider undeniable and actionable evidence of Teaming if it were captured in video evidence?
  • What do you think would be a justifiable punishment for those who violate your hypothetical Teaming policy?
  • (Bonus Question) What can we do to make SoloSG more popular?

As mentioned before, the leadership team and I will be reading over all of the opinions posted here over the next few days in order to guide our decision-making process. So please do not spare any detail in your thoughts or throught processes, but please keep all discussions civil. We are here to learn what opinions the community has on this very controversial topic.
 

dljs

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In all honesty, you will lose a large demographic of your community if you put a ban for teams overall, there really is no need to ban teams ONLY if they are clan battles constantly in normal games (literally every game on AU). No ban limit = best solution.
 

Lebron12

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In all honesty, you will lose a large demographic of your community if you put a ban for teams overall, there really is no need to ban teams ONLY if they are clan battles constantly in normal games (literally every game on AU). No ban limit = best solution.
CB's are now held on MCSG Maker.
 

NyanCreeper

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  • Should Teaming be allowed on MCSG? If so, what is the maximum number of players allowed to Team in a game? Yes Teaming should be allowed and there should be no limit to the amount of players in a team
  • What would you consider undeniable and actionable evidence of Teaming if it were captured in video evidence? Tossing and sharing items, and or standing with or beside each other without fighting, and finally text teaming
  • What do you think would be a justifiable punishment for those who violate your hypothetical Teaming policy? No punishment
  • (Bonus Question) What can we do to make SoloSG more popular? Suggest players who would like to play SoloSG to rally others in the hub, rally players in one of the Discord text channels such as #mcsg-general, and have the players rally into a voice chat on the MCGamer Discord
 

SirClubs

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  • Should Teaming be allowed on MCSG? If so, what is the maximum number of players allowed to Team in a game?
  • Personally, I never really cared if I got teamed on, whether it be by 2 players or 6 players. Why? Well because I realize how much fun it is to play with friends. Honestly, I’m not sure how much I would play if I couldn’t play with friends. Although I do see why people love and hate teaming (me being on the side of loving it) I think it would be best to max teams out at 3 people, and here’s why: Think about it, people team because they enjoy playing with friends, right? So, let people play with friends. Let’s say 3 friends hop on and want to play MCSG together, If you max teams out at 2 players then the 3rd friend is left out, but if you max it out at 3 people then no one is left out, and if there is a 4th player then they can split up into teams of 2, if there’s a 5th player, split up into teams of 2 and 3 ect… Personally, I love teaming, and think there shouldn’t be a cap, but for the betterment of MCSG I think a cap is best, at least until a competitive game mode arises.
  • What would you consider undeniable and actionable evidence of Teaming if it were captured in video evidence?
  • If a team of four were to kill one guy and then proceed not to fight each other, and instead just bolt away. Also, odds are if 4 people kill one guy then they’re most likely grouped up together, and if this is the case then someone’s bound to at least get a few hits on someone else.
  • What do you think would be a justifiable punishment for those who violate your hypothetical Teaming policy?
  • I think a 30min – 1 hour ban would suffice as a “warning” to not team anymore, and this ban shouldn’t be shown on a player’s record. After a warning, if the team continues then a longer ban should be set, but I’d say 24 hours for second and slowly increase it from there.
  • (Bonus Question) What can we do to make SoloSG more popular?
  • This is a tough question, but to get it going, maybe have a few volunteers (Enough to start a game) promote they’re playing on solo SG either in discord or in-game. But In all honesty, this would be difficult, and I think MCSG needs more of a player base for solo SG to truly take off.
 
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REVER5E

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  • Should Teaming be allowed on MCSG? If so, what is the maximum number of players allowed to Team in a game?

    Yes, up to 3 players.
    1.
    Once the server releases officially and more players will start coming back to the game, normal SG (not SoloSG) will get flooded with Turkish teams of 8 and stream/other huge teams in general. This is why I stopped playing normal SG back in late 2015, it just wasn't fun fighting 3 different teams of 4+ every game, and it was literally impossible to play solo.
    2. There have also been cases of people boosting in a to6 even in Alpha, and I don't think it's fair that someone can just tell their team of 6 to do all the work for them and then die on purpose, practically handing the win to that player and boosting them to the top of the leaderboards (which is also a huge flaw of a win-based leaderboard, it's just an endless grind rather than a display of who is the most skilled individually).
    3. Also consider how casual players would feel - I don't think dying to lots of teams of 4+ every game is fun at all, especially in regions like AU/OCE where basically every game has a huge team in it.

    Extra: you mentioned a Queue system in the thread, which is a great idea. I don't think there should be a team limit in Casual queue, but it obiously has to be capped at 2 in Competitive. Since this system is far from being released and we don't have any separation between Competitive and Casual games yet, I find it fair to cap the team limit at 3 until it will be released.

  • What would you consider undeniable and actionable evidence of Teaming if it were captured in video evidence?

    Sharing gear, 4/5/6v1'ing someone, teaming in chat, obvious communication between team members ("Let's attack IGN and then fight in DM" | "Do you have diamonds/iron/arrows/armour?")

  • What do you think would be a justifiable punishment for those who violate your hypothetical Teaming policy?

    A similar system to the one that you have for SoloSG. First offence - 1d Ban; Second - 3d; Third - 7d; Fourth - Permanent. The duration of those is up to you, just an example.

  • (Bonus Question) What can we do to make SoloSG more popular?

    Basically rework it into a competitive gamemode with an ELO-based leaderboard.
    1.
    Announce in hubs when a game of SoloSG is about to start, so solo players can join and find the gamemode easier.
    2. Once players join, they should automatically get disguised so nobody knows who they're playing against. This will help prevent teaming.
    3. Host a SoloSG tournament to make it more popular, a winner can get a rank for a month, for example. To join a tournament, you have to get to the top-100 in leaderboards/play a certain amount of games of SoloSG in a set amount of time (requirements are up to you, obviously). Tournaments can be held on a monthly basis.
 

pKTran

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Should Teaming be allowed on MCSG? If so, what is the maximum number of players allowed to Team in a game?
I personally do not see an issue with teaming so I will say no, and here’s my biggest concern: people enjoy playing with their friends. I think we can all agree that any battle royale type of game (whether it be Fortnite or MCSG) is much better when playing with friends. I still play alone, but I have an immensely better time when I’m playing with the friends I met 5-6 years ago. If a limit is added to the rules, a lot of people will ignore it and a lot of people will be upset. MCSG has recently become incredibly competitive. People playing with their friends aren’t (usually) those competitive players. Enacting a team limit may strip away the joy players have when playing leisurely. For instance, I am very terrible at PvP. I cannot do anything against fishing rods, especially since I don’t know how to use one myself. I am equally terrible with a bow, so usually I’ll die within like the first 3 minutes when playing alone.. it’s safe to say I am not one of those competitive players. I’m hesitant to play games alone because I know I suck. What’s the point in playing if I die right away, you know? I still play, but I have the most fun and play more games when I play with friends. Usually it’s just two of my friends, but there are occasions where we will truce with other players in the game. It’s how it was in the beginning and I don’t see an issue with teaming, no matter how irritating it is.

If we were to enforce a limit though, I’d say 3 is good. I see teams of 2 or 3 more often than a team of 4+. These teams of 4+ exist, but they aren’t as prominent. With a limit of 3, anyone playing in 4+ teams can break off into smaller teams. However, what if they break off into teams but are silently truced? They see each other and run the other way? Is that considered teaming? There’s a lot to think about and consider when it comes to enforcing this type of rule.


What would you consider undeniable and actionable evidence of Teaming if it were captured in video evidence?
  • Players right next to each other and not attacking the other
  • Exchanging items
  • Being blatant in the chat - “Do you have an iron?”
  • Running towards a player when you’re being chased just to turn around and you both attack the chaser
What do you think would be a justifiable punishment for those who violate your hypothetical Teaming policy?
Someone pointed out that it should be similar to the SoloSG teaming rules and I agree.

(Bonus Question) What can we do to make SoloSG more popular?
I think that if we advertise SoloSG more, more people will play. At this point, I think some players are unaware SoloSG even exists. Maybe the CET could host some special solo events in the SoloSG servers? Whether that be a tournament type of event, different theme/scenario, etc. Another suggestion might be to have a system similar to other servers. So instead of having a menu item for SoloSG and Classic SG, there will be one SG menu item. Then when the player clicks on the SG item in their menu, they’re presented with another menu asking the player if they’re playing Teams or Solo. If they choose Teams, everyone in that server is paired with another. If solo, everyone is, of course, solo. I think if we make the option of solo more prominent, it will catch the attention of more players. Because right now, the players that DO know about SoloSG think it’s always empty.

PS: I’m fine with whatever is enacted. Just figured I’d give my two cents on this controversial topic lol
 

Blake43215

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I would prefer to see the rules stay the same, with no team limit in place, purely because my play style is to befriend others from game to game. It's how I originally formed my old clan and made some lifelong friends.
I won't go into detail regarding each point, because I'm not a relatively active player and that would be unfair to throw my opinions into the pool without having sufficiently immersed myself in the new competitive gameplay. However, I do want to address the bonus question.

  • (Bonus Question) What can we do to make SoloSG more popular?

As PK mentioned earlier, it may benefit solos if the CET were to host solo specific events, anything that will amass a large portion of the community. If solos were to actually have a fresh circulation of players, maybe 2-3 games actively running at once, (In my opinion) that's all it will take to revive the gametype. The current stigma behind Solos is that nobody ever plays, so why even bother trying. Very few players will want to sit in a lobby for 10 minutes while people trickle in, so having an event would be very beneficial. Which leads me to my second suggestion.
Map Release Events. With new maps released bi-weekly, this is kind of an easy one.
Every time a new selection of maps is released, release it to Solos only for a short period of time before adding it to standard matches. Once again this promotes player circulation within Solos, and therefore destigmatize the gametype.
This last one's a bit less easy. My theory is a bit shakey, but hear me out. I suggest that with the return of the leaderboards, the default redirect should be to the SoloSG board. By giving the SoloSG board the front page, a stigma will be created that that is the choice leaderboard to brag about. and subsequently more players will be drawn to solos in the hopes of getting their name on it.
 
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VenomBB

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Maybe the source of the problem is the players? Let's just let bots play ez.
 

SixZoSeven

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I would prefer to see the rules stay the same, with no team limit in place, purely because my play style is to befriend others from game to game. It's how I originally formed my old clan and made some lifelong friends.
I won't go into detail regarding each point, because I'm not a relatively active player and that would be unfair to throw my opinions into the pool without having sufficiently immersed myself in the new competitive gameplay. However, I do want to address the bonus question.

  • (Bonus Question) What can we do to make SoloSG more popular?

As PK mentioned earlier, it may benefit solos if the CET were to host solo specific events, anything that will amass a large portion of the community. If solos were to actually have a fresh circulation of players, maybe 2-3 games actively running at once, (In my opinion) that's all it will take to revive the gametype. The current stigma behind Solos is that nobody ever plays, so why even bother trying. Very few players will want to sit in a lobby for 10 minutes while people trickle in, so having an event would be very beneficial. Which leads me to my second suggestion.
Map Release Events. With new maps released bi-weekly, this is kind of an easy one.
Every time a new selection of maps is released, release it to Solos only for a short period of time before adding it to standard matches. Once again this promotes player circulation within Solos, and therefore destigmatize the gametype.
This last one's a bit less easy. My theory is a bit shakey, but hear me out. I suggest that with the return of the leaderboards, the default redirect should be to the SoloSG board. By giving the SoloSG board the front page, a stigma will be created that that is the choice leaderboard to brag about. and subsequently more players will be drawn to solos in the hopes of getting their name on it.
I'd love to promote/run a solo tournament style event. Currently in the process of running it by the necessary people.
 

Mooclan

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Personal opinion in my post. Haven't talked about it much with other players yet. Glad to see this being discussed. Will try to keep it shorter.
Should Teaming be allowed on MCSG? If so, what is the maximum number of players allowed to Team in a game?
Yes, teaming should be allowed.
Anywhere from 3 to 5. 2 is too low, and I see no need for 6+.
What would you consider undeniable and actionable evidence of Teaming if it were captured in video evidence?
(1) An "At Rest" component may be worth considering as a requirement - Sharing items, crafting, chatting.
(2) Multiple Instances - Seeing the suspected teammates engage in multiple fights as a team. One fight can too easily be coincidence or impromptu.
What do you think would be a justifiable punishment for those who violate your hypothetical Teaming policy?
No personal stance on this other than: in initial stages after the rule is implemented, it should be enforced leniently. Especially during the remainder of Beta, as it's mainly old players who are used to teaming. I don't see a need for bans for this offence unless it's a 3x repeat offense or such.
(Bonus Question) What can we do to make SoloSG more popular?
Greater rewards or incentives for playing - Getting kills (and being killed) might be slightly more challenging because it'll be easier to run away or "hand-off" a pursuer. Perhaps each kill/death chould reward/deduct more points?
Maybe also something to do with leaderboards.

Promotion of SoloSG should be systematic and built-in. Not [entirely] reliant on the promotional efforts of staff.

------

Two things:

(1)
I, myself, am a social gamer. If I play MCSG at all, it's likely going to be with friends, in a team. If you take out teams, you take out an incredibly large chunk of the motivation/reason people play MCSG. This is not a game that is purely played for statistics and rankings - especially since there is no hard-coded elo/mmr system to support such a thing.

Additionally, an uninformed opinion: If you're going to implement elo/mmr, begin in SoloSG, if realistically possible. And perhaps rename SoloSG into something that clearly displays its competitive nature.

(2)
For certain rules and behaviours, I sometimes hold a stance of "If you don't at least try to discourage/prevent it, then don't punish for it."
Example: Profanity. There is a swear filter in place. If anyone bypasses it, then it's OK to punish/mute for it. But if a word isn't filtered and someone uses it in regular conversation, don't punish for it - fix it on the server-side before you begin punishing. The onus is on the platform first.

I feel Teaming also falls under this principle.
If Teaming is going to be restricted, it must first be regulated server-side in some way before it becomes punishable. In other words, there must be a tangible restriction that someone (a team) would have to intentionally go around before it is punishable.

A rough example of how this can be done is:
  1. Replace the current lobby-join system with a Queue. When players join a queue for team-restricted gamemodes, send a message indicating team limits.
  2. Set the Party system to the Team Max (i.e. 3)
  3. Ensure that Parties join the Queue together.
After this system is in place, creating clear-cut Do's and Do not's for teaming, then any extension of the team beyond this restriction can be interpreted as an intentional circumnavigation of the rules/system.

Additionally, implementing a Queue may open opportunities for other donor perk options.


Is there any discussion of changing the Death Match system to prevent 2v1's? No particular stance on it, but I do recall seeing it done on some other servers.

I can feel my backspace button becoming soft. Christmas present to myself - new keyboard after 7 years?
 

Ceroria

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Whenever this issue comes up I get stuck on the implications behind punishing people who break the proposed teaming rules. For argument’s sake, let’s say there’s a max team limit of four. If I run into a five-team ingame and take them on myself I’m gonna lose 99 out of 100 times. That game is already lost for me. Sure, I can record them and report them, but the damage is already done for the gameplay experience. And if they are punished, how harshly will it be? Can people eventually get permanently banned for teaming? Seems a bit harsh- but you’d also have to be pretty stupid to do it enough to get yourself permbanned. There are also the gray areas of subtle teaming. Punishments will get messy.

A team limit may discourage massive teams but I find teams larger than 3 extremely rare anyway. Usually people die early, etc.

The best way to get rid of teaming is just play smart and run, chokepoint, lead them to other people, etc. Those work more often than not. If none of those work and you die, it’s just one game. Frustrating? Extremely. Punishable? Please no
 

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